will_scholten — 2017-07-22T15:59:45-04:00 — #1
Continuing the discussion from Where do we find in scripture that the dietary laws are done away with?:
This verse has always confused me, because all of us sin, right!
I was just studying this verse because Dave l brought it up again.
The more I look at it, the more I am sure it is NOT talking about us, or the "born again" as Dave likes to bring up.
I know I still sin, and believe ALL men and women sin. So what or who do you take this verse to be talking about?
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: 15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him. 16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. 18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. 20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. 21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols.
The Holy Bible: King James Version. (2009). (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version., 1 Jn 5:13–21). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
As far as I know Yahusha is the only one verse 18 can be describing! So I don't think it can be talking about the "born again" can it!
18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
justin_gatlin — 2017-07-22T16:43:04-04:00 — #2
Context is king. Look at verse 1 of the chapter.
will_scholten — 2017-07-22T16:49:35-04:00 — #3
Great, so we are in agreement!
So why was I never taught that?
justin_gatlin — 2017-07-22T17:07:26-04:00 — #4
Everyone who believes Jesus is the Christ is born if God and does not abide in a state of sin. See also 3:9. I am not sure I am following you, Will.
will_scholten — 2017-07-22T19:14:46-04:00 — #5
Sorry, I miss understood you!
So do you believe we are the ones who sinneth not, is man?
5 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
The Holy Bible: King James Version. (2009). (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version., 1 Jn 5). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
I took this to say;
Whoever believeth Yahusha is the anointed fathered by YHWH, and everyone loves Him that begat ,loveth also the one begotten of Him.
I take it to be stating YHWH fathered Yahusha and you need to love them both.
Also in the NIV2011, after 1 John 5:18, there is a footnote to John 14:30
30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me,
The New International Version. (2011). (Jn 14:29–30). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
He has no hold over me,is saying the same thing as 1 John 5:18, right!
But the prince of this world has a hold on man, right!!
justin_gatlin — 2017-07-22T23:09:08-04:00 — #6
That is not a possible interpretation of the Greek. "Whosoever" requires a verb before "and" introduces a new independent clause. The NIV footnote is not inspired and is just showing how we are like Jesus in our new birth. Also, there is more than one person begotten of God in this verse, because those begotten by God love the others who are also begotten. So it cannot be simply Jesus.
On either side of the "and" you need both a subject and a verb. Using a modern, literal translation like the ESV or NASB should help you see what is happening.
1 John 5:1 (NASB95)
Subject Phrase 1: Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ
Verbal Phrase 1: is born of God,
Subject Phrase 2: whoever loves the Father
Verbal Phrase 2: loves the child born of Him.
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-07-23T04:00:22-04:00 — #7
1John 5:16-18 (NASB)
16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.
17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.
18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
Depending on how terms such as "his brother", ""born of God" and "sin" are understood, this passage may seem self-contradicting? Any thoughts ?
dave_l — 2017-07-23T07:50:56-04:00 — #8
It is possible to reject impure thoughts and imaginations before they fully develop. “Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;” 2 Corinthians 10:5 (KJV 1900)
So if you walk in the Spirit, and censor thoughts and imaginations just as you change channels on TV or Radio, you too can reach a point where you do not habitually live in sin. But instead control it. Sin cannot exist where Love as defined by Scripture is the motive.
will_scholten — 2017-07-23T09:19:33-04:00 — #9
So if you can live without sin, you don't need grace, what did you need Yahusha's sacrifice for?
What is sin?
3 And everyone who has this hope in him continues purifying himself, since God is pure. 4 Everyone who keeps sinning is violating Torah—indeed, sin is violation of Torah.
Stern, D. H. (1998). Complete Jewish Bible: an English version of the Tanakh (Old Testament) and B’rit Hadashah (New Testament) (1st ed., 1 Jn 3:3–4). Clarksville, MD: Jewish New Testament Publications.
Dave, you appear to talk in circles here.
You say you can live without sin, you only have to keep the 2 great commandments, which you say are different from the 10 commandments and the Torah is defunct.
Now 1 John 3 tells us what you say is defunct IS what tells us what sin is!!
Can you fill us in using scriptures?
I might add without contradicting other scriptures!!
will_scholten — 2017-07-23T10:05:09-04:00 — #10
So, are we saying g the same thing;
Whoever believes Yahusha is the anointed is born of YHWH,whoever loves the father, loves
the child born of Him.
The Parable of the Tenants
20:9–19pp—Mt 21:33–46; Mk 12:1–12
9 He went on to tell the people this parable: “A man planted a vineyard, rented it to some farmers and went away for a long time. 10 At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants so they would give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. But the tenants beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 11 He sent another servant, but that one also they beat and treated shamefully and sent away empty-handed. 12 He sent still a third, and they wounded him and threw him out.
13 “Then the owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I will send my son, whom I love; perhaps they will respect him.’
14 “But when the tenants saw him, they talked the matter over. ‘This is the heir,’ they said. ‘Let’s kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ 15 So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
“What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16 He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others.”
The New International Version. (2011). (Lk 20:9–16). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
I other words, you are to treat My Son as you would treat Me.
So I ask again, do you fit in this verse?
If you do, you have no need for grace or a Saviour, because you do not sin.
There is only one person who knew no sin!!!
I need grace to cover my short comings!!
This brings up another thing.
Are we not taught that all sins are equal, this says different doesn't it!
Torah tells us what sins lead to death to, doesn't it!
Verse 19 "a" is an added word.
Your reply will probably be the unpardonable sin, the rejecting of the Holy Spirit. But what will the Holy Spirit cause us to do?
27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
The New International Version. (2011). (Eze 36:27). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
dave_l — 2017-07-23T10:07:47-04:00 — #11
The way I see it, we come into the world spiritually dead sinners. An evil species. We cannot begin to think or imagine anything good in God's eyes. God randomly chose some of us for salvation and paid for our sins in Christ. Being justified by Christ's death, God brings us back to spiritual life in the New Birth. At this point we can discern and obey the Two Great Commandments. And for the first time, have love as our motive instead of self serving lust.
We can still sin, but we always lose out when we do and God chastises us. Eventually we learn to deny the flesh and walk in love, living in harmony with the Two Great Commandments. The New Birth gives us a New Spiritual Nature. But our souls (minds/flesh) are still polluted and need renewing. So in the New Birth we can walk in the Spirit and not the flesh. Before the New Birth we could only walk in the flesh.
This is why the Ten Commandments are primarily for those not born again. That is, those still walking after the flesh. And the Two Great Commandments are for those who are Born Again.
will_scholten — 2017-07-23T10:11:24-04:00 — #12
so can verse 18 be talking about us? No, we sin!!
dave_l — 2017-07-23T10:15:52-04:00 — #13
We can choose to sin, but anyone born again does not adapt a sinful lifestyle. “For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.” 1 John 5:4 (KJV 1900)
“No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.” 1 John 3:9–10 (ESV)
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-07-23T10:49:26-04:00 — #14
Does "no one who is born of God sins" mean "no one who is born of God has a sinful lifestyle" ? From where does the understanding of "to sin" = "to habitually sin" or "to have a sinful lifestyle" come?
dave_l — 2017-07-23T10:59:21-04:00 — #15
Notice the contrast John makes between holiness and sin. This might help to know what he means by what he says.
“Everyone who has been fathered by God does not practice sin, because God’s seed resides in him, and thus he is not able to sin, because he has been fathered by God.” 1 John 3:9 (NET)
“The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed: to destroy the works of the devil.” 1 John 3:8 (NET)
will_scholten — 2017-07-23T11:40:18-04:00 — #16
So you must be a better than Paul was, because even he had a hard time, didn't he!!
20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
The New International Version. (2011). (Ro 7:20–25). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
dave_l — 2017-07-23T11:42:41-04:00 — #17
I'm only following Paul's advice.
will_scholten — 2017-07-23T11:44:41-04:00 — #18
A sinful lifestyle by whose standards? Mans or YHWH'S? There is a huge difference, because according to YHWH sin IS TORAH LESSNESS!!
dave_l — 2017-07-23T11:46:08-04:00 — #19
As I said, according to the Two Great Commandments.
will_scholten — 2017-07-23T12:17:13-04:00 — #20
So with your definition of the two great commandments, it would make it according to Dave, right!
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