justin_gatlin — 2017-07-23T17:17:46-04:00 — #1
2 Corinthians 3:12–4:6 (ESV)
12 Since we have such a hope, we are very bold,
13 not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end.
14 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.
15 Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts.
16 But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
1 Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart.
2 But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God.
3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.
4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
5 For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake.
6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 13:8–13 (ESV)
8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
The cessationist view is that unknown tongues, inspired prophecy and supernatural knowledge existed for the completion of the New Testament, then fizzled out because the perfect New Testament superseded these partial revelations. We now have faith and hope until the Second Coming, where our hope will be achieved and our faith will be sight. Love is forever. 2 Corinthians seems to use remarkably similar language to talk about seeing Jesus clearly in the New Covenant, which we have in the present. I wish there was a good way to mark the parallels on this board, but I thought this was interesting food for thought.
dave_l — 2017-07-23T18:23:57-04:00 — #2
I also believe the Apostles were the only means God used to distribute the Spiritual Gifts, through the laying on of their hands, after the two outpourings. And only those commissioned by them could command signs and wonders. Yet these were not able to pass the gifts on.
And of the 3000 converts on the Day of Pentecost, and the 5000 shortly thereafter, I believe only some received the Gifts because of the limitations in the method of distribution. But perhaps many over time received direct ministry by the Apostles. John, the last Apostle died about the time the canon became completed with his Book of Revelation. And beyond this time history shows no claim of the gifts until the Montanist cult emerges.
gao_lu — 2017-07-23T19:19:54-04:00 — #3
I never gave much thought to anything but Cessationalism for many years. Couldn't see it any other way. Then, gently, God opened my eyes to how He is working in different places with different people. The "gifts" are currently present and are being practiced Biblically. Not always, but far more than I once thought.
I remember once (back in Cssationalist days) asking a wise old preacher about the matter. He said words something like this: "There is much I do not know, but one thing I long for is greater sensitivity to the Holy Spirit." Turns out I did not really know what he thought or experienced until many years later.
Wayne Grudem has an interesting position on the matter if you have his theology book.
dave_l — 2017-07-23T19:44:13-04:00 — #4
How do you know they are genuine? I believe God used the gifts to confirm Jesus and the Apostles the same way he used miracles to confirm Moses, Elijah and Elisha. Also a closer look at Acts shows that apart from the two outpourings, the gifts came only through the Apostles' hands. And those who received from them could not transmit them to others. Meaning the gifts ceased when the last Apostle died.
gao_lu — 2017-07-23T20:33:36-04:00 — #5
Because they are Biblical and conducted Biblically and because of experience. Because of the participation and counsel of many very Godly men and women. Because of the witness of the Holy Spirit within. Because the alleged Biblical counter-arguments are strained surmisings.
Don't get me wrong. Some of what I have seen in America I think is fraudulent or misguided or simply misunderstanding by those who engage these "gifts." I would offer the possibility that "miracle gifts" are for people who lack or need other witnesses. In most Western mature churches that is likely unneeded. This has been a long difficult journey for me, but a clear one. I suppose it is not over yet.
tyrone_howard — 2017-07-23T22:18:29-04:00 — #6
I use to believe that the gifts ended with Bible days as I use to call them. Untill I sawthings with my own eyes, my spirit bore witness to which I'm still on a process with
Myself of understanding and learning but I am convinced the gifts exist and are present. I've seen spirits cast out, I've seen miracle healings, prophecies come to past, discernment, just too much to type...
Hunger and faith of the people have allot to do with It but also the lives of Minister's in the west. Being able to yield to the Holy Ghost more and more, in a way which manifest gifts requires a crucified flesh and a set apart lifestyle, most aren't willing to make the sacrifice. Think about it Peter didn't even want to be bothered with duties of the early church because he wanted a life devoted to fasting and prayer that he could be used by the Holy Ghost.
dave_l — 2017-07-24T07:03:40-04:00 — #7
Do you believe scripture is complete? If not, today's prophecy and tongues are equally the Word of God. And you must continue adding to the NT canon. And you must point out who today are Apostles by their signs and wonders. Any suggestions on who might be? If even one miracle in the magnitude of any of the first century miracles were to happen, it would dominate the media for years.
dave_l — 2017-07-24T07:09:58-04:00 — #8
Any Christian can cast out demons through the power in Jesus' name alone. And Judas had all of the Apostolic authority as an unbeliever. So it is what scripture says and not what you see that matters.
tyrone_howard — 2017-07-24T09:34:49-04:00 — #9
Judas did not have Apostolic Authority.
Listen, I can't argue what I've experienced, that is foundational in epistemic discussions in that if we are not epistemic peers, religious discussions will always end in stalemate. I don't know what you've experienced, but you would think if one shares with you something they've experienced although you may be doubtful, you would still desire to see these things. Instead you want to shoot it down. No matter, you are free to believe what you will.
tyrone_howard — 2017-07-24T09:39:15-04:00 — #10
Scripture is not complete. Acts doesn't have an Amen. Many occurrences in Revelation and Many prophecies even in OT have not come to Past.
I have seen the Lord speak and it come to past, with mine own eyes - the true sign of a Prophet's ministry. I have witnessed, nvm you will not believe...whats the point.
I just know Jesus is risen, with all power in his hands. Nothing is impossible to him and the Word of God is a Living Word, not a dead letter.
dave_l — 2017-07-24T09:46:46-04:00 — #11
He was an Apostle. He did all the other Apostles did.
gao_lu — 2017-07-24T09:59:28-04:00 — #12
By Scripture I think you might mean the NT Canon as you have defined it--I am not sure what you think that Canon includes. The 66 books generally accepted by Baptist-like churches I think are a reasonable Canon. They are adequate and trustworthy and we lack nothing we need to know for salvation and godly living as far as I know.
Do you think that? How sure are you?
Me? I wouldn't.
I have never yet pointed out Apostles by their signs and wonders. Should I be doing that? I am not sure I know any Apostles today.
No. Not yet.
They do happen and they don't dominate the media. So you might be mistaken on this particular point.
Let me give a single example. To make a long story short, I was once far out in a jungle and a Muslim witch doctor was in her bamboo stilt hut lying on her bed very ill, unable to rise. My wife and I laid hands on her and prayed and she rose right up, felt fine and cooked us a meal. She is now a believer.
Now neither my wife nor I are Apostles. Neither my wife nor I healed that woman. God did it. He did it all. I prayed in faith, but honestly, I was struggling with doubt inside. God did it in spite of my small faith.
I don't expect you to believe that story but I could provide you with seemingly endless more stories. I get no credit, I have just been blessed to see up close and personal as God worked. When such things happen over and over you can't help but believe.
dave_l — 2017-07-24T10:04:43-04:00 — #13
James says the prayer of faith will heal the sick. And this happens frequently in many churches. But these types of happenings are not the signs and wonder gifts held by the Apostles only, and by those they commissioned.
But if the gifts are still with us. Anyone speaking in tongues has the same weight as scripture. And the canon remains open.
gao_lu — 2017-07-24T10:19:54-04:00 — #14
Then I won't tell you about the others.
Just curious, but have you ever seen a whithered arm made whole? Have you ever seen a very sick person, unable to rise, suddenly stand up and go to work? Are those the things you are "seeing frequently in other churches?" If so....tell me about it. If not, why?
Maybe you could think about it differently and come to another conclusion. I don't know.
tyrone_howard — 2017-07-24T10:24:17-04:00 — #15
Dave it seems you are shrouded in disbelief and I'm not really sure Nothing anyone says will change that.
I will say this, What you call scripture is a cannon which has had books removed for various purposes I wont go Into it is a Record of events past. The Word of God however, is a Living Word. God is not the God of the Dead but the Living.
I also can't get you to believe all that I have seen, but I remember once after a funeral, The Lord in our pastor was anointing a young man who had been fighting satan and trying to make his way back to the church. And his father in the middle of it, stood up called the boy a liar, said the pastor was making accusations that he didn't love his son, I mean just a spirit over took this man. The Spirit of the Lord fall on a Brother in our Church named Phil, he was young trying to seek God for his ministry had been fasting on and off for a couple months and he began speaking in tongues, whole words, sentences and everything. Another Younger Brother who wasn't even continually in the church, but was there for the funeral, yet grew up in the church, came close to him and the spirit of the Lord began Speaking out of him also. Same tongues, same words, same sentences it sounded like at least to me. the Lord through them was pointing as he was talking in these tongues. I mean The Chruch hit the floor. Noone even said to but knees were buried in hands. You could feel the Power of God in the place.
after the speaking subsided The Pastor then Interpreted the tongue and God was saying to the people, you all continue to judge and don't know your own hearts, among some other things and then said to check your own hearts so you dont find yourself to be fighting against God and what he is saying. I'm paraphrasing because I don't want to misquote.
Point is not for you to believe, because I'm not sure you can unless you are there, but I never believed in the authenticity of tongues myself but I do not doubt them now.
dave_l — 2017-07-24T10:25:03-04:00 — #16
I've seen miracles too and knew a guy who witnessed an outstanding miracle his daughter received. But it is always in line with the prayer of faith that James says will heal or save the sick.
But nobody has seen the Book of Acts come alive apart from the 12 and Paul, and those commissioned by them.
Prophecy in Acts was no different from Prophecy in the OT. And tongues interpreted = Prophecy. So if these people have the genuine gifts of tongues and prophecy, it is God speaking, just as he did through Moses and Isaiah.
lu1 — 2017-08-04T00:50:31-04:00 — #17
I will tell you what I have seen. I have not seen a withered arm restored but I have seen people who have suffered from Arthritis for decades healed and I have seen a person with a shortened leg healed completely both of these healing in the USA that happened to people I am well acquainted with. I have seen and spoken to a man who was dead 30 minutes and a nurse who went to the same church he did and would not stop praying for him and he is alive and well here in the states... No repercussions from being dead 30 minutes, His name is Ed Illaraza.
I have seen the Holy Spirit "fall upon" a Church and transformed people in America. I being one where I was a alcoholic but I was immediately delivered from that addiction overnight. No desire to drink again. I have seen what it looked like the Holy Spirit leaving a church and people are struggling with bad shepherding in Indonesia. I have seen more that several people manifest demons in the USA and several people delivered from demons in the in the USA as well. Along with countless stories of people being delivered in foreign lands told to me by people I know to be people on integrity.
I have seen tongues spoken over people and the events in their life have gone according to what was spoken. I am one that this has happened along with others. Unfortunately, I have seen tongues misused and have affected people walk with the Lord.
It is my understanding that the Holy Spirit can't lie, ever.If He does He is not God, If He is knocking on your door it is always in line with the Scriptures. Never, ever is there an acceptation to the fundamental truth.
gao_lu — 2017-08-04T03:58:11-04:00 — #18
Thanks for your reply, Lu. I appreciate your testimony. Dave would not answer those questions addressed to him.
dave_l — 2017-08-04T06:59:15-04:00 — #19
I believe I did answer them. If not my position is that healing through the prayer of faith according to James is for today. Also power over demon induced illness in Jesus' name. And we experience God's providence in many miraculous ways. But the Gifts of the Spirit came only through the hands of the Apostles, except for the single Jewish outpouring at Pentecost, and the later Gentile outpouring at Cornelius' house. No Apostles = No Gifts.
Scripture is the "perfect" that Paul said would come, and tongues, prophecy, and the revelatory gifts all ceased with this. Along with the signs and wonders performed by the Apostles and those commissioned by them through the laying on of their hands.
gao_lu — 2017-08-04T08:14:16-04:00 — #20
This is what I asked:
Just curious, but
- have you ever seen a whithered arm made whole?
- Have you ever seen a very sick person, unable to rise, suddenly stand up and go to work?
- Are those the things you are "seeing frequently in other churches?"
- If so....tell me about it. If not, why?
I do not see answers to those questions. I could assume (which is dangerous) that your answers are all negative and thus your answer responds to the "If not, why?"
E.G "No Apostles = No Gifts." Which I think means no miracles??? I am not sure how James fits in there or what you see happening in that passage.
You offer an interpretation, but I think there is much in Scripture which is not "perfect" yet.
I am being a little hard on you, not so much because we are so far apart as because I think you sometimes are so sure of yourself that your starting point is that everyone else is wrong, even if they agree with you completely 3X. Think carefully. I am also inclined that way so it may be true that "It takes one to know one."
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