dave_l — 2017-01-20T06:31:26-05:00 — #1
Another Gospel? Salvation by hypocrisy?
In the Bible, salvation is by grace. This means God saves people apart from any value they might have. Or God saves them as sinners apart from any scriptural obedience and goodness they might muster.
But when God saves a person, they develop certain righteous habits or characteristics that identify them as vessels of mercy. For instants, being born-again, they will recognize and accept Christ as their savior; Have confidence in the Gospel message when they hear it. Or routinely confess with their mouth that Jesus is the Lord. They will naturally and habitually live the Law of love for God and people written in their hearts.
But a problem arises when we convert the characteristics Christians develop through the New Birth, into conditions people must meet in the power of the flesh for salvation. Some evangelists beginning with Finney and popularized by Billy Graham, showed that after preaching the simple Gospel, confidence in it is not enough. That you must complete salvation by “going forward” and accepting Christ or by deciding for Christ. Something you already did spiritually when you heard and confided in the Gospel.
So the already saved person followed their instructions and ended in thinking they saved themselves only after they did their part. And others did all they asked gambling the Gospel might be true, and in case it is, they’re covered. I’ve heard some compare their “Christianity” to having fire insurance just in case. Which of course is not faith but hope.
So if Christian virtues become the condition for salvation, that is, “accepting Jesus, “repentance” or any other work, then those who first act like Christians will turn into Christians. And this is hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is another name for acting.
The Gospel says Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures. They buried him according to the scriptures. And God raised him from the dead the third day according to the scriptures. If this simple message alone creates confidence in your heart, it proves to you God saved you. It is a litmus test to show who God saved. Because God promises to save those who believe the Gospel. He tells all those he saves to get baptized, repent and live a holy life. The Two Great Commandments shine through us as continuing proof God saved us.
gao_lu — 2017-01-20T18:59:23-05:00 — #2
I think you capture something important. Salvation isn't a result of our commitments or resolutions or grand efforts. However we articulate the order and process of salvation, the thing that matters is, do we know God, are we walking with God? A person can cry all day that they are saved, but when a person is truly saved, their life is transformed--in reality, it is not an act or hypocrisy.
Concerns are that people "accept Christ" through tradition, without relationship, or for social / psychological / philosophical reasons but without relationship. For many reasons, people may say they are saved or being saved, but the proof is like water through a garden hose. No water? Spigot is off. If the spigot is on, the water will gush out. If we are truly saved, spiritual fruit will be evident. Meanwhile, God is still working on pruning me!
will_scholten — 2017-01-21T18:21:31-05:00 — #3
I agree with this 100%, but how do we do it?
To live a "holy life"
6942. קָדַשׁ qadash (872d); denom. vb. from 6944; **to be set apart or consecrated:—become consecrated**(2), become defiled(1), become holy(1), consecrate(43), consecrated(35), consecrates(7), consecration(2), declare holy(1), dedicate(2), dedicated(8), dedicating(1), holier(1), holy(5), keep(1), keep it holy(2), keep the holy(3), made it holy(1), manifest my holiness(2), prepare(2), prove myself holy(2), proved himself holy**(1), purified(1), regard as holy(1), sanctified(9), sanctifies(10), sanctify(12), set them apart(1), set apart(4), set apart the consecrated(2), show himself holy(1), transmit holiness(2), treat me as holy(3), treated as holy(1), vindicate the holiness(1), wholly dedicate(**1).
6943. קֶדֶשׁ Qedesh (873d); from the same as 6944; “sanctuary,” the name of several places in Isr.:—Kedesh(11), Kedesh-naphtali*(1).
6944. קֹדֶשׁ qodesh (871c); from an unused word; **apartness, sacredness:—consecrated(2), consecrated thing(1), consecrated things(2), dedicated(1), dedicated gifts(2), dedicated things(5), holiness(9), Holy(6), holy(263), holies(6), holy ones(1), holy portion(3), holy thing(2), holy things(12), most holy(25), most holy place(6), most holy things(6), sacred(2), sacred gifts(2), sacred things(3), sacrifices(1), sacrificial(1), sanctuary(65), set apart(1), thing most holy(2), things that are most holy(1), things dedicated(1).**
Thomas, R. L. (1998). New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek dictionaries : updated edition. Anaheim: Foundation Publications, Inc.
Can we be "set apart" by following the traditions of man over the commands of YHWH?
What does "repent" mean?
7725. שׁוּב shub (996d); a prim. root; to turn back, return:—again(53), answer(4), answer*(5), answered(5), averted(1), back(7), back again(2), bring(1), bring her back(1), bring him back(2), bring it back(1), bring me back(2), bring the back(1), bring them again(1), bring them back(14), bring you back(5), bring back(14), bring presents(1), bring … back(4), bringing(1), bringing the back(1), brought(2), brought him again(2), brought him back(3), brought it back(3), brought me back(4), brought the again(1), brought them back(2), brought us back(1), brought again(1), brought back(17), brought … back(1), call(1), came again(1), came back(1), cause(1), certainly bring(1), certainly bring them back(1), come back(10), converted(1), deluded(1), desist(2), draw and turning(1), draw it back(1), drawn(1), drew back(1), drives(1), ever go back(1), fro(1), forth(1), gave … return(1), get(1), get it back(1), give(2), give a answer(1), give it back(1), give them back(1), give back(2), gives(2), go(1), go on back(1), go back(10), go*(1), going back(1), gone back(1), indeed(1), indeed bring(1), indeed bring me back(1), indeed return(2), indeed turn away(1), keeps(2), make them return(1), make restitution(1), paid(2), pass your again(1), pass away(1), pay(1), pays us back in full(2), punishing(1), put(3), put his back(1), put the back(1), put back(1), rebuilt*(2), recall(2), recalls*(1), receded(1), recompense(1), recompense*(1), recompensed(4), recovered(4), refreshes(1), refund(3), refuse(4), refute(1), regain(1), remade*(1), render(8), repaid(1), repay(5), repeatedly(2), repeats(1), repel(1), repent(6), repent and turn away(2), repentant(1), repented(1), replace(1), reply(6), reply*(1), reported(1), reported*(1), repulse*(2), rescue(1), respond(1), restitution may be made(1), restitution which is made(1), restore(58), restored(17), restorer(2), restores(7), restoring(1), restrain(2), restrained(2), retire(1), retreat(1), return(261), return and take back(1), return*(1), returned(151), returned*(1), returning(2), returns(9), reverse(1), revived(1), revoke(10), revoked(1), sent back(1), set(1), spent(1), still(3), subsides(2), surely return(4), take(4), take it back(1), take me back(1), take my back(2), take your back(1), take back(2), there(1), took back(2), turn(49), turn and and withdraw(1), turn her away(1), turn his away(1), turn it back(1), turn me into again(1), turn them back(1), turn to you again(1), turn you about(1), turn you around(1), turn you back(2), turn your away(1), turn again(1), turn aside(1), turn away(24), turn away and not repent(1), turn back(20), turn … back(1), turned(16), turned them back(1), turned around(1), turned away(9), turned back(16), turned … back(1), turning(2), turning away(1), turns(7), turns again(1), turns away(5), unleash(1), went back(5), went*(1), withdraw(4), withdrew(1).
Thomas, R. L. (1998). New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek dictionaries : updated edition. Anaheim: Foundation Publications, Inc.
If we look at the OT Israelites, what did they have to "turn to again" "return to" in order to be in YHWH'S graces again?
The 2 great commandments shine through as proof!
If we love YHWH with all our heart, soul, mind and strength, would our actions of following His instructions for being set apart speak louder than our words.
Who recieves Grace according to the scriptures?
dave_l — 2017-01-21T18:51:16-05:00 — #4
Thanks for your question Will. Under the New Covenant Israel is made up exclusively of believers in Christ. Although many believed in Christ by the name YAHWEH under the Old Covenant, many did not. This is why they rejected him when he lived among them during the first century. These Christ/Yahweh rejectors worshipped Satan thinking they worshipped God. They needed the Ten Commandments to keep God from killing them because of their wickedness. But all believers of all time lived according to the Two Great Commandments written in their hearts.
So it is our nature, as it was way back when, to live holy lives. In fact, under the New Covenant, we receive the fullness of the Holy Spirit when we walk in the light of this Law.
will_scholten — 2017-01-21T20:35:06-05:00 — #5
But what does Paul tell us, are we better than Paul?
**14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. u For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to** death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
The New International Version. (2011). (Ro 7:14–25). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Doesn't this tell us, it is our sinful nature that we want to follow?
bkmitchell — 2017-01-21T20:37:53-05:00 — #6
Interesting claim. I have searched but I have yet to find a verse/passage in the Scriptures that actual state that Israel is made up of believers in Christ. Rather, according to Paul, they are enemies of the Gospel (Romans 10:1, and 11:28) meaning they can't also be believers in Christ!
However, I do agree that the CHURCH is made up exclusively of believers in Christ and that the Church is part of the Olive Tree.
dave_l — 2017-01-22T04:59:43-05:00 — #7
The Church is Israel under the New Covenant and the Seed of Abraham. And those who rejected Jesus as the Messiah became gentiles by default when God removed the Old Covenant and Circumcision. Abraham was to excommunicate any not circumcised because circumcision along with community made one a member of his covenant. The end result is the same. No circumcision with community membership = gentile.
dave_l — 2017-01-22T05:14:43-05:00 — #8
First I would use John to interpret what Paul means. “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:9)
And then I would read Paul again in Romans 8:1 “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.” (Romans 8:1–2)
So we are speaking about losing old habits and walking in the light of the Two Great Commandments written in our hearts. Bringing every thought captive to Christ. “(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;” (2 Corinthians 10:4–5)
If you can do this, you will be as free as free can get...
Also, have you considered that Paul is describing what it is like being an unregenerate Jew wrestling with the Ten Commandments. And then comparing that to new life in Christ?
bkmitchell — 2017-01-22T06:58:01-05:00 — #9
You do a great job of clear stating what you believe on this matter. However, the issue remains that the phrases "the church is Israel", "New testament/Covenant Israel", and the like are nowhere to be found within the New Testament writings nor the text of the Hebrew Bible Nor does any writer pause to explain why Christians should believe that Church is now Israel. The writers like Paul seem to clearly differeniate between being a member of Israel and being a member of the Church. I think this one of those issues like the "trinity theory/doctrine" that also do not appear as a phrase/term nor is ever once outlined and clearly defined by the NT.
So, while I agree that the NT makes it clear that the body of Christ is the Church, it not clear that the Church is Israel.
bkmitchell — 2017-01-22T07:10:55-05:00 — #10
Great point and well said.
I think this is a problem and is evident when Churches pass judgment on members (and even disfellowship or excommunicate them) for not holding to creeds, confessions, pet doctrines, and so on.
Now. the above is not to say that creeds and confessions are inherently bad, I think they can be used as statements of faith or as a way to explain and illustrate what one believes the Bible says.
dave_l — 2017-01-22T07:15:50-05:00 — #11
As I see it, if Jesus is Abraham's Seed he is Israel proper. Then we who believe are also Israel. The Old Covenant believers were also Israel because of their relationship to Christ in God's plan. (Jacob/Israel was Israel because of his relationship to Jesus). The physical unbelieving seed God removed when he removed the token of Circumcision and abolished the Ten Commandments that controlled them. So three of the groups called Abraham's seed were always Israel to whom the promises applied. And the unbelievers God removed. So the Old Covenant believers accepted Jesus as the Messiah and remained as Israel. The unbelievers became gentiles by default.
will_scholten — 2017-01-22T07:40:44-05:00 — #12
Yes, but they both teach the same thing, right!
3 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, r we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.
The New International Version. (2011). (1 Jn 3). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.
How can we the church say the law/ Torah is done away with, it is in fact the law/Torah that teaches us what sin is, but we don't care, we teach we can ignore it!
Yes, free from sin and death, no more innocent animals have to die, ti does not say obedience to the law/Torah is done away with! There is a huge difference.
Yes very true!!
10 By the humility and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you—I, Paul, who am “timid” when face to face with you, but “bold” toward you when away! 2 I beg you that when I come I may not have to be as bold as I expect to be toward some people who think that we live by the standards of this world. 3 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 6 And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete.
The New International Version. (2011). (2 Co 10:1–6). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
6 And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete.**
If we live by the standards of the world, we like OT Israel are living in disobedience to YHWH'S instructions for His "Set Apart" ones. Can we live for YHWH today and not strive to be set apart??
dave_l — 2017-01-22T07:48:49-05:00 — #13
The Ten Commandments taught wicked people what sin is at a level they could understand. They could not understand spiritual truth.
But since the Church/Israel is made up of holy people only, they do not need the Ten Commandments. Why? because they are not wicked.
will_scholten — 2017-01-22T08:58:41-05:00 — #14
I live in the USA, so I will only speak about the USA.
Let's compare US to Israel (OT)
Israel was told not to worship the way other nations worship their Gods.
US teaches us to worship on the "day of the sun". ( I've said this before, on line there is a 1 million dollar offer for anyone to show using scripture alone where the Sabbath was was done away with and Sunday took is place)
Even though many of us know Yahushua was NOT born in December, we join and teach the rest of the world to celebrate His birth on that day. Why?
The scriptures state Yahushau will be in the center of the earth 3 days AND 3 nights, yet we celebrate Good Friday and a easter sunrise resurrection ( where is the 3 days and 3 nights here), to top that most of our churches celebrate the "Last Supper" on good friday which will almost always fall during "unleaven bread". Which if we are using leaven bread, what are we doing?!!
Many many people have the tradition to eat ham for easter dinner, Check out to see where that tradition came from!
I would say this makes us wicked!
Israel would sacrifice babies in the fire to baal!
How many innocent babies has the US aborted since Roe vs Wade? My wife told me 58 million!!
Scripture tells us they put the traditions of man above the commands of YHWH.
All the above tells me we do the same thing. But we are not wicked, in whose eyes? Man's?
After Adam sinned, ALL men have a sinful nature, I read no where that man is created different after Yahushua's resurrection.
We need to get back to what the WORD tells us, and stop trying to twist it to say and mean what mans traditions say, Peter warns us about us doing this doesn't he!
dave_l — 2017-01-22T09:43:32-05:00 — #15
Yes. But we also need to read scripture for ourselves and not as any denomination would have us to do. Can you honestly say your beliefs came from independent study before you selected your denomination? And that is why you selected it? Because it lined up with what you already believed?
will_scholten — 2017-01-22T10:08:55-05:00 — #16
Yes, you are so rght!!
No, I was brought up in that way!
Because that is how I was taught to believe.
Good points Dave!!
Mans traditions are so hard to break away from!
dave_l — 2017-01-22T10:24:39-05:00 — #17
If we could just learn what scripture says wouldn't it be wonderful? Most of my christian experience has been wrapped around disproving what I've been indoctrinated with by various groups over the years. In my experience, some of them have one or two morsels of truth. But I'm like a mouse sneaking a piece of cheese from a mouse trap. And getting out while I still can. This is true of my library and study methods too.
And when your friends have similar beliefs, it is really hard to think outside the box. It is like kicking drugs. You have to get away from them or it won't happen. And when you do they become your worst enemies.
will_scholten — 2017-01-22T10:44:45-05:00 — #18
I can't say that, but they stay away.
Someone once said" you can teach people anything, but to try to show them they believed a lie, is very hard to prove."
It's hard to go against the grain.
bkmitchell — 2017-01-22T18:45:38-05:00 — #19
If by 'proper' you mean to say that Jesus was a 'Type' of Israel or that Israel was a 'Type' of Jesus then I think I can understand that and I believe the NT may also make such a claim. And, if you mean that Jesus fulfilled the promises given to Abraham then I understand and agree.
If, not then I think this line of though raises some questions:
(1) Why, wouldn't Jesus then be Isaac if he is Abraham's seed?
(2) Why, wouldn't the NT say Jesus is the son/seed of Isaac Jacob if he(Jesus) is Israel?
(3) The Historical/literary character Jacob/Israel lived and died. And, there is no hint that he was reincarnated or resurrected. So, in what sense is Jesus Israel?
(4) The descendants of Jacob which would also include Jesus, the disciples, and Paul could be said to Children of Israel but it is hard to understand how anyone one of them individual could be Israel to the exclusion of everyone else.
dave_l — 2017-01-23T05:28:06-05:00 — #20
“The key to understanding Matthew’s idea of the true Israel lies partly in the typology we noted earlier, whereby it is in Jesus himself that the various strands making up the nation’s life find their fulfillment. When Matt. 2:15 applies to Jesus the words of Hosea 11:1 about Israel as God’s “son” rescued from Egypt, this is no arbitrary misquotation, but a reflection of Matthew’s belief that Jesus is Israel, and that in his experiences a new exodus is taking place. He is the representative head in whom the nation’s destiny is now concentrated. Henceforth, therefore, to belong to “Israel” must mean to belong to Jesus, and it is through their relationship to him that his people, whether Jew or Gentile, become God’s people Israel.”
France, R. T. (1993). Matthew, Mark, and Luke. In D. A. Hagner (Ed.), A Theology of the New Testament (Rev. ed., pp. 226–227). Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.
But also the “Congregation of the Lord” = Israel in the OT = Church of the Lord = Israel in the NT.
“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” (Matthew 16:18)
(1) It took Isaac to produce physical Israel from whom God would call the seed, Christ and believers of old.
(2) Because all are the Seed of Abraham including Isaac & Jacob?
(3) You are confusing the father of the bloodline with the bloodline.
(4) If Jesus is Abraham's Seed, then all others relate to him being the children of Israel Jesus. The unbelievers were merely the physical children whom God removed from the believers.
“Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.” (Romans 9:6–9)
A simpler way to look at it is circumcision = physical membership in Abraham's family. Carried over into Moses' Israel. "Uncircumcised" = gentiles. God abolishes circumcision = unbelieving Jews are gentiles with old customs. Only those in Christ remain Israel
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