bkmitchell — 2017-01-24T08:20:42-05:00 — #21
Then Jesus is typologically Israel as well as being a descendant of Israel through Mary and/or by adoption through Joseph.
Yet, Jesus said nothing of building Israel in Matthew 16:18 (For Israel existed long before he spoke to Peter), but he 'Jesus' did speak of building his Church/community. And, I believe fully that Jesus' church is made up of believers in him.
Sure, there are people who fell away from Israel and who were never circumcised in the heart, but I am not sure what that has to do with the identity of the Church. It does show that faithful Jewish men like Jesus were/are part of Israel and that those that were not faithful were cut off.
dave_l — 2017-01-24T08:59:31-05:00 — #22
I believe OT Israel was a type of Christ. He was the Seed called from among Isaac's seed. “Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.” (Romans 9:6–8)
If Jesus is Israel, or if the "congregation of the Lord" is Israel and the NT "Church = Congregation of the Lord" how can it be otherwise?
“This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:” (Acts 7:38)
The Church of old had both believers and unbelievers. It was a physical institution shrouding spiritual believers. God removed the physical institution leaving the spiritual believers.
Thanks for your interest in this.
bkmitchell — 2017-01-24T18:12:20-05:00 — #23
Yes, 'if' Jesus is Israel, but it would seem that Jesus is an individual rather than a nation, ethnic group, or social-religious group. So, Jesus came from Israel and is a member of Israel, but Jesus I believe is not Jacob/Israel reincarnated nor is he more than one individual.
Yes, this again is the NT use of Pesher, because it is clear that literally there was no 'Church' in the wilderness at least not according to the text of the Pentateuch/Torah. Neither, the term 'Church' nor the name 'Jesus'(referring to our Lord) is to be found in the Masoretic text of the Pentateuch/Torah. The speakers/writers of the NT then uses the events in the Pentateuch as an analogy to speak of Christian life.
If, however, I would be more than happy if someone can provide a detailed exegesis of the Masoretic text of the Pentateuch to proves that the Church existed in that time. Until I see such I will probably continue to believe that the NT writers were using Pesher.
Not, sure what you mean by Church of old, I am guessing you are speaking of some of the ancient Christian groups?
dave_l — 2017-01-25T05:33:19-05:00 — #24
Jesus is the Head, we are his Body according to scripture.
"Congregation" (of the Lord) is a synonym of "church". So the Church existed during the wilderness journey and long before.
Also, I did some study to better answer your question about the Jews today. My position is that they do not exist because circumcision no longer means what it did in Abraham's day or in the Old Covenant. So why does ethnic "Israel" continue to exist? My present position is;
After Jerusalem's destruction, God must have intended for defrocked Israel to continue ethnically. Serving the same purpose they did under the Old Covenant. Only instead of protecting Christ’s spiritual seed, they would now preserve Jacob’s physical seed until the fullness of the gentiles come in. Keeping Jacob’s lineage alive for future restoration with Christian Israel. For the sake of the Fathers.
In Romans eleven, Paul says God plans to save these. That God blinded and removed these from Israel replacing them with believing gentiles, until the fullness of the gentiles come in. But Paul also says “There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:” (Romans 11:26) That would be "Jacob from among all the proselyte "Jews".
God will reattach these from Jacob’s stock to Israel under New Covenant terms. When the fullness of the gentiles come in. And in this way he will save all Israel. But it still remains that the ethnic Jews who reject Christ, remain under God’s wrath until the end of time.
bkmitchell — 2017-01-29T04:03:10-05:00 — #25
That may be true but my point was more on the lines that according to the Scriptures Jesus was and still is an individual, now with a resurrected body.
If that is the case it is might interesting that translators do not use the term Church when they translate the Hebrew Bible. And, I believe they do not because they recognize that the Church is that which Jesus helped start long after the close of the Hebrew Bible.
We, agree on the point above. And, that is also when I believe Jacob/Israel shall be brought into the Church and both shall be one. At, the present time I still consider the Church and Israel to be two different groups.
Grace and Peace
dave_l — 2017-01-29T05:17:56-05:00 — #26
This is true, but he sends his Spirit into our hearts joining us to him. He is Israel and we are too because of this. Also consider;
“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.” (1 Peter 2:9–10) Compare with;
“And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.” (Exodus 19:6)
“I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.” (Romans 11:25–26)
I don't know why they chose the words. But synonyms are interchangeable and mean the same thing. Perhaps this is why Stephen used "church" linking the two words in Acts 7:38. Placing the Church that we are part of at Sinai.
I believe the Church is made up of believers only. And that the Jews and Israel do not officially exist according to the NT. But ethnic Jews and ethnic Israel are in fact gentiles with Jewish customs. They exist as a huge body of Jewish proselytes with some of Jacob's DNA among them.
bkmitchell — 2017-01-29T07:35:47-05:00 — #27
He is an Israeli or Israelite, but he Jesus is one man, not a whole nation of people.
We have both spoken much on the passage above. And, it is clear that we understand it differently. And, I am not going be able to understand the passage the way you do without seeing some exegesis and very persuasive reasoning. If, you know someone who understands Romans 11 the same way you do and has written a detailed article/exegesis I would love to see it.
So, do I but that believe does not make the Church into Israel.
I believe that God's Kingdom is much bigger than the Church, the Church is part of God's kingdom, but so are the angels who are not members of the Church, nor members of Israel. Moses, father in law was a priest seemed to know and believe in the one true God, but was not a member of Israel, and I believe that he is a part of God's Kingdom, but he is neither a member of the Church not of Israel.
That then would mean that Jesus did not start the Church, but that the Church existed before he was born and before he told Peter that he would build his Church. However, I take Jesus at his word that he would build his Church meaning that his Church did not exist before, but rather was something new and different from Israel.
bkmitchell — 2017-01-29T07:53:01-05:00 — #28
I also think that we come to different conclusions in part because we use scripture differently. You use the NT to interpret the so-called Old Testament (Hebrew Bible), while I use the Hebrew Bible to examine and interpret the NT.
In part, I try to apply what I see the Bereans Jews doing in Acts 17:11. They (the Berean Jews) were eager to listen and to hear what Paul had to say, but they checked what he taught them using the scriptures they had in their synagogue. Which of course would not have been the NT, but would have have been the Pentateuch (Torah), as well other books included in the Hebrew Bible. I believe that the Hebrew Bible and the NT do not contradict and that the literature of the Hebrew Bible is inspired.
dave_l — 2017-01-29T08:08:40-05:00 — #29
Jesus is Israel typified by OT Israel. Again; “When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And called my son out of Egypt.” (Hosea 11:1)
Compare; “And [Jesus] was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.” (Matthew 2:15)
Matthew reinterpreted Hosea as an Apostle.
It is simple. God hardened part of Israel until the fullness of the gentiles came in (into Israel) and in this way God saved all Israel. Note, Israel was already there and God grafted gentiles into it. The unbelieving Jews became gentiles since circumcision no longer works in making one a Jew.
Jesus sits on David's Throne in Heavenly Jerusalem and “And [he] hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:” (Ephesians 2:6)
Yes and he abolished the unbelievers and is building the church on faith alone. You assume he is beginning his church and he is not.
dave_l — 2017-01-29T08:09:49-05:00 — #30
This is true but Jesus and the Apostles taught us to interpret the Old using the New.
bkmitchell — 2017-01-29T08:22:40-05:00 — #31
Impossible for the corpus of literature known as the NT was not completed to well after the death and the resurrection of our Lord.
The last time I checked unbelievers still existed.
dave_l — 2017-01-29T08:27:50-05:00 — #32
They were interpreting the OT according to New Covenant principles that later became recorded as scripture.
Not in the sense of Church membership. There are no dead limbs in the Body of Christ.
bkmitchell — 2017-01-29T08:35:43-05:00 — #33
Sure, Jesus is figuratively Israel.
Do, you mean to say Matthew though of Hosea as an Apostle?
God hardened part of Israel, till the fullness of the gentiles came into the Church and or the Olive Tree. But, since Paul that same section (Romans 11) clear say that they 'Israel/the Jews' are enemies of the Gospel for your (the Church's) sake it seems clear that Israel and the Church are not the same.
You say it so clearly, buy since no verse in the NT state it that way I take this as your interpretation. But, note we both believe that the Church is made up of believers only.
That is an interesting belief thanks for sharing, however, I believe differently.
As has been noted time and time again. We, both believe that the Church is made up of only believers.
dave_l — 2017-01-29T08:47:21-05:00 — #34
No, Jesus is Abraham's Seed and Israel. OT Israel was a type and figure of him.
No, Matthew having Apostolic authority interpreted Hosea as speaking about Jesus.
The ethnic Jews were enemies of Israel the Church having been removed from the Church because of unbelief.
How can the Body of Christ include unbelievers? If faith makes one a member? The "institutional church" people have a lot of trouble with this when they cannot prove "institutional churches" exist.
If you approach the New Testament from the Old, you risk missing many of the same things the Pharisees missed. They had the veil over their hearts, the Apostles did not.
will_scholten — 2017-01-29T10:23:37-05:00 — #35
We need to begin with verse one, who is the audience? The tribes of Israel!
**The Remnant of Israel
11 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” g 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be** **grace.
7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.” n**
9 And David says:
“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.” p
Who are the two branches that wil be joined together agan?
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
All Israel Will Be Saved
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.” r
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?” b
35 “Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay them?” c
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
A Living Sacrifice
12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
The New International Version. (2011). (Ro 11:1–12:2). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Need more proof of the audience, let's look at ! Peter 1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:
Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
The New International Version. (2011). (1 Pe 1). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Dave, I think you are 110% correct here!!
But BK, would it be "build His church" or re build His Assembly/Congregation?
Wasn't the main problem in Israel/Judah, that they would get snared into the way the nations worshipped and that of mans tradition! They were led astray form the way the "Good News/Gospel" taught.
If Yahushua meant "build His church", He would be bringing a new gospel, and that can not be!
The OT and Paul both tell us, cursed is anyone who brings you a new Gospel.
I think that is AWESOME!!
Yes, BK, we both agree that the Bereans checked what Paul said against the OT, So they were making sure Paul was in fact in agreement with the OT! Nothing new!
Warnings From Israel’s History
10 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
6 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.” b 8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9 We should not test Christ, d as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10 And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.
11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come. 12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! 13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
The New International Version. (2011). (1 Co 10:1–13). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
There is nothing "new" about how we are to worship!
We still need to be obedient to the Torah/Law!( just hthe sacrifice, offering and priesthood changed)
**9 If a person will not listen to Torah,
even his prayer is an abomination.**
Stern, D. H. (1998). Complete Jewish Bible: an English version of the Tanakh (Old Testament) and B’rit Hadashah (New Testament) (1st ed., Pr 28:9). Clarksville, MD: Jewish New Testament Publications.
The Torah says we are to keep YHWH's Days
Feast, which the Sabbath is the first one listed!!
Keep dietary laws!
3 Do not eat any detestable thing. 4 These are the animals you may eat: the ox, the sheep, the goat, 5 the deer, the gazelle, the roe deer, the wild goat, the ibex, the antelope and the mountain sheep. 6 You may eat any animal that has a divided hoof and that chews the cud. **7 However, of those that chew the cud or that have a divided hoof you may not eat the camel, the rabbit or the hyrax. Although they chew the cud, they do not have a divided hoof; they are ceremonially unclean for you. 8 The pig is also unclean; although it has a divided hoof, it does not chew the cud. You are not to eat their meat or touch their carcasses.
9 Of all the creatures living in the water, you may eat any that has fins and scales. 10 But anything that does not have fins and scales you may not eat; for you it is unclean.**
The New International Version. (2011). (Dt 14:3–10). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
2**4 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live?**
None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.
The New International Version. (2011). (Eze 18:24). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Why did Yahushau take the 12 men He did?
He did not go to the scribes, pharisees and the teachers of the law, because they were set in their traditions,and taught a heavy yolk, that even they could not keep, instead He picked the teachable men, and taught them!
dave_l — 2017-01-29T11:11:38-05:00 — #36
All Israel will be saved = All who come to Christ from the gentiles, Jacob's seed, and ethnic "Israel" are Israel. AKA the Church.
will_scholten — 2017-01-29T11:36:41-05:00 — #37
I don't take it to be the ethnic Romans, but the scattered tribes. Granted some Romans could cross over to become as Israel, but I would call them, followers of the "Way".
dave_l — 2017-01-29T14:51:18-05:00 — #38
One important thing we must remember, Jesus said God saves us not according to blood, will of the flesh, will of man, but by the New Birth.
“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:12–13)
I believe the 12 Tribes are all accounted for in the early church. And possibly some of Jacob's DNA is in blood lines among the Jewish converts that make up most of Israel. But Jews ceased to exist when the generation living at the time God abolished circumcision, died off. So today's Jews are really gentiles with Jewish customs.
will_scholten — 2017-01-29T17:37:04-05:00 — #39
Where did the Jews go after the temple was destroyed?
I would say they hid from the Romans, the Romans would kill them!
bkmitchell — 2017-01-29T18:15:48-05:00 — #40
Simply put it doesn't. The Body of Christ the Church is made up only of believers. You and I both agree on this point as has been pointed out numerous time already.
The ethnic Jews are Israel, but the historic enemy of Israel has often been those claiming to be Christian who have done great wrongs in Christ name.
Matthew using the typical pesher method did so.
I don't because I do not have an OT. Rather I use what I do have; the Hebrew Bible or the Masoretic text to understand the writings call the NT for the Bible of the writers of the NT was the Jewish Scriptures, not the NT which did not exist until 100 or 200 years after Christ.
But, now that we Christian do not have a veil over our hearts we should return to the Hebrew Bible and reading it with our unveiled eyes, rather than ignoring it or throwing in away or claiming that the literature called the Jewish Scriptures has been abolished.
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