david_taylor_jr — 2017-03-09T11:23:41-05:00 — #1
Continuing the discussion from Mark of the Beast?:
Wanted to start a new topic around this. I do not believe denominations are inherently bad. They can be bad, but they are not automatically.
I disagree as well with your painting of a broad brush and generalization of how denominations divide.
For sake of argument take the Ligonier National Conference that happens each year. They bring theologians to the stage that are Presbyterian, Reformed Dutch, Reformed Baptist, Southern Baptist, and Non-Denominational as well as others. They highly disagree on some issues but they are NOT divided at all.
In fact, those men exhibit a great LOVE and RESPECT for each other and unify where there is agreement among them.
Paul and Peter disagreed on some points, but did it truly divide them? No, I do not think so.
There is much that can be said about the way that denominations do indeed divide the body but we shouldn't automatically throw everything else out without further examination.
dave_l — 2017-03-09T11:51:06-05:00 — #2
Thanks for the question. My objection to denominations is two fold. One Paul condemns following men and causing divisions in the body of Christ. “For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?” (1 Corinthians 3:4)
Another is that the New Testament churches are individual households independent of each other. Denominations on the other hand, are business franchises that package and sell religious services to Christians. But they are not the church itself. Moreover they all eventually entropy into error being of human origin.
I do not know of any denomination free from error. They seem to develop around the errors they hold, and not the truths they share in common.
david_taylor_jr — 2017-03-09T11:55:53-05:00 — #3
Once again you are painting with a VERY broad brush and it's an unfair generalization.
Two problems with this:
- I do not know of any CHRISTIAN that is free from error.
- I gave you a specific example of leaders in denominations coming together around the things that unify them and you seem to ignore that. Why?
dave_l — 2017-03-09T11:59:34-05:00 — #4
Are you accusing me or Paul of this? He is the one that came up with it. I'm just trying to be obedient.
Disobedient folks often hang together?
david_taylor_jr — 2017-03-09T12:02:50-05:00 — #5
You made the statement, not Paul.
I see you ignored the actual substance of my comment. Hard to take you seriously when you do that.
dave_l — 2017-03-09T12:06:32-05:00 — #6
Paul condemns following men, I just tell you what he said.
What I'm saying is that most if not all of these teach sinful doctrines. Divorce and Remarriage is biggie with most = adultery. Infant Baptism, Visible Institutional Church for starters....
david_taylor_jr — 2017-03-09T12:11:53-05:00 — #7
You actually take that verse out of context. Paul says the men are servants of God and ultimately do the will of God, but he did not say that you should not follow after them. Worship does not equal Follow.
Sinful according to who? And I am curious about your specific examples and what exactly you are referring to/meaning?
dave_l — 2017-03-09T12:25:35-05:00 — #8
Not at all. Paul condemns sectarianism.
According to scripture and nothing else.
david_taylor_jr — 2017-03-09T12:27:54-05:00 — #9
Of course, but who determines what is the right way to interpret Scripture? And perhaps you could actually answer my full question....
Care to actually engage with my full post?
dave_l — 2017-03-09T12:29:54-05:00 — #10
Are you saying we cannot know what sin is from reading the Bible?
Paul condemns sectarianism. What else can I say?
david_taylor_jr — 2017-03-09T12:31:46-05:00 — #11
Did I say that? No, but who determines who is right? After all, that is why there are denominations right?
You still have not engaged with my points, is it because you don't want to or cannot?
dave_l — 2017-03-09T12:33:46-05:00 — #12
Please state it again so we know exactly what we are discussing.
david_taylor_jr — 2017-03-09T12:38:06-05:00 — #13
dave_l — 2017-03-09T12:40:02-05:00 — #14
I already answered this saying Paul condemns sectarianism.
david_taylor_jr — 2017-03-09T12:41:13-05:00 — #15
Clearly you are not actually interested in discussing the full scope of this topic. If you change your mind, let me know.
dave_l — 2017-03-09T12:43:20-05:00 — #16
This is not true. You are providing me with an opportunity to show what scripture says about the matter. Perhaps if you try to prove your position from scripture we could compare notes?
david_taylor_jr — 2017-03-09T12:46:46-05:00 — #17
Scripture actually does not address denominations specifically. You took a verse out of context as I pointed out earlier.
You have not actually addressed any of my points. You make broad generalizations without context and refuse to address points when I point out the fact that you are mistaken in your assumptions and generalizations.
So I stand by my statement that you are not interested in discussing the full scope of this topic.
dave_l — 2017-03-09T12:49:01-05:00 — #18
It describes them regardless of what other names you call sectarianism and division by.
I asked you to please re-state them so I know what to address.
david_taylor_jr — 2017-03-09T12:54:17-05:00 — #19
I already relinked them once:
dave_l — 2017-03-09T13:59:00-05:00 — #20
I can only say Paul condemns sectarianism. Scripture also tells us to mark those who cause divisions and have no fellowship with them. Denominations are business franchises that package and sell religious services to the church. They are not the church. But they normally revolve around the errors that separate them from the other denominations. That is, they do not come together based on truth they share. But divide over errors each holds. They hire full time "clergy" that cannot speak outside of the dogma they build around.
I hope this helps answer your questions.
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