will_scholten — 2016-04-22T21:45:12-04:00 — #1
****4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.**
7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.**
The New International Version. (2011). (1 Jn 3:4–10). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
How could the world before the flood have been wicked, if they did not have the Torah/ Instructions to tell them what sin was?
Would YHWH wait almost 2000 years before He would tell them how He wanted to be worshipped and served?
4 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, g 5 because Abraham obeyed me and did everything I required of him, keeping my commands, my decrees and my instructions.”
The New International Version. (2011). (Ge 26:4–5). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
Noah and the Flood
9 This is the account of Noah and his family.
Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.
The New International Version. (2011). (Ge 6:7–9). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
The Scriptures define "righteousness"
24 The LORD commanded us to obey all these decrees and to fear the LORD our God, so that we might always prosper and be kept alive, as is the case today. 25 And if we are careful to obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness.”
The New International Version. (2011). (Dt 6:24–25). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
gao_lu — 2016-04-22T22:14:04-04:00 — #2
I am pretty sure there were instructions and commands. You offer good examples.
lu1 — 2016-04-23T10:21:46-04:00 — #3
There are arguments that the 10 Commandments were in effect during Adam & Eve's timeline. Specifically argued is Cain and Able narrative... both in how to worship God with sacrifice and the manslaughter of Able. However there is no clear directive in the O.T. / Pentateuch that tells us that there was Law during Adam & Eve's timeline, as we would understand the Torah as Law. But one might argue it, if they have a mind too.
wolfgang_schneider — 2016-04-23T14:55:24-04:00 — #4
A passage from Rom 5 indicates a time before the Law ("until the Law")
*Rom 5:12-15 (NASB)
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13 for until the Law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.*
As we see here, there was sin in the world from Adam onward, but the Law apparently was from Moses on.
will_scholten — 2016-04-23T15:38:53-04:00 — #5
But if we read further in Romans 7,
7 Therefore, what are we to say? That the Torah is sinful? Heaven forbid! Rather, the function of the Torah was that without it, I would not have known what sin is. For example, I would not have become conscious of what greed is if the Torah had not said, “Thou shalt not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, worked in me all kinds of evil desires—for apart from Torah, sin is dead. 9 I was once alive outside the framework of Torah. But when the commandment really encountered me, sin sprang to life, 10 and I died. The commandment that was intended to bring me life was found to be bringing me death! 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me; and through the commandment, sin killed me. 12 So the Torah is holy; that is, the commandment is holy, just and good.
Stern, D. H. (1998). Complete Jewish Bible: an English version of the Tanakh (Old Testament) and B’rit Hadashah (New Testament) (1st ed., Ro 7:7–12). Clarksville, MD: Jewish New Testament Publications.
Verse 9 has to be talking about Adam, right!
Paul never lived without the law.
wolfgang_schneider — 2016-04-23T15:54:53-04:00 — #6
Well, since the sentence in v. 9 starts with "I was [once alive outside the framework of Torah]...", aer you saying that Adam wrote that sentence ??? Seems rather clear to me that the "I" is not a different person from the "I" in other places throughout the section ....
will_scholten — 2016-04-23T16:37:51-04:00 — #7
Lets look at the 7th day Sabbath first.
2 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
The New International Version. (2011). (Ge 2). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
1) YHWH blesed the 7th day and made it holy! Does the scriptures any where tell us YHWH blessed and made holy any other day?
2) YHWH rested, do a word search on "rested"
3) Exodus 20 and Deut. 5
8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God.
The New International Version. (2011). (Ex 20:8–10). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Remember the Sabbath day ( what is in the middle S ABBA TH)
4) Numbers 15
The Sabbath-Breaker Put to Death
32 While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.
The New International Version. (2011). (Nu 15:32–36). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
A Sabbath day breaker is not just slapped on the hand is he, he was put to death!
5) Lev. 23
3 “ ‘There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a sabbath to the LORD.
The New International Version. (2011). (Le 23:3). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
So according to Exodus 20, Deut.5 and Lev. 23, we are to work 6 days and have Sabbath , so of we say we keep Sabbath every day, that would be wrong to, correct.
6) So if YHWH is the same YTT, would it make sense for YHWH to create and show how the 7th day, then tell us remember to keep Sabbath it holy, show us the consiquense is death by breaking it. Why would we ever think YHWH would be ok with us breaking it now,
7) Then in John 14
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”
22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”
23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31 but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
“Come now; let us leave.
The New International Version. (2011). (Jn 14:15–31). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
8) 1 John 2
Love and Hatred for Fellow Believers
3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
7 Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. 8 Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining.
9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister q is still in the darkness. 10 Anyone who loves their brother and sister lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble. 11 But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them.
The New International Version. (2011). (1 Jn 2:3–11). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Do you think YHWH would try to confuse us? No,
Does the Scripture contradict it self? No
bkmitchell — 2016-04-23T18:57:20-04:00 — #8
Torah is singular and it means instruction.
Torat (the plural form) means instructions.
(a) If, by Torah you mean the Pentateuch (the five books of Moses).
I believe the Pentateuch wasn't put into writing until at least 1312 BCE. And, that it was Moses who started the process at or after Sinai in the wilderness. Which would rule out the possibility for it being completed before the revelation at Mt. Sinai (Matan Torah).
(b) If, by Torah you mean all 613 commandments found in the Pentateuch.
I would answer that it is more than possible that some of the 613 commandments like circumcision were given before the revelation at Mt. Sinai, but there is no evidence so far to conclude that all 613 were given before the revelation at mt. Sinai.
(c) If, by Torah (or rather Torot/ תּוֹרוֹת) you mean either general or specific commands/instructions.
I would answer that there are clear commands given to Adam, Noah, Abraham, and so on, but when these commands are counted the do not come to a total of 613.
Adam and Eve did not have the Pentateuch(The Torah), but they did have some instructions for the Lord (yet not the 613 commandments) and they sinned. Cain, also did not have the 613 commandments, but when he killed his brother it was also considered to be sin.
bkmitchell — 2016-04-23T19:18:06-04:00 — #9
Sure, we can do that again in more detail maybe even make a new thread for a Joint Bible Study on Genesis chapter two. Till, then I will answer this question the same way I did on the following thread:
will_scholten — 2016-04-23T22:36:23-04:00 — #10
8 The law is not itself sin, but in fact sin seized its opportunity through the commandment; Paul does not here say law because, as the next words show, he is still thinking of the last commandment of the Ten, the prohibition of desire. The word here translated ‘opportunity’ means literally ‘point of departure’, and is often used in military contexts to denote the origin of a war. Sin and law are clearly differentiated, though closely connected. Sin aimed against man an attack which law never intended, and was able to use law in its approach. It thereby produced in me every kind of desire, because law had created the conditions in which desire (see above) could operate. Apart from law, the desire would not have been apparent, for apart from law, sin is dead—that is, inactive; sin was present, but not counted (5:13); indeed, not countable.
The allusion of 5:13 suggests one possible interpretation of this verse, and of vv. 9 ff. They may be understood as pointing to the story of Adam; indeed, if Paul is not actually telling this story he is at least using it to bring out his point. Sin—the serpent—was in the Garden even before man, but had no opportunity of attacking the man until the command ‘Thou shalt not eat of it’ (Gen. 2:17) had been given. It was precisely by means of this command, the prototype of all law and religion, that the serpent tempted man. The command marked out the difference between man and God, creature and Creator, which is the theme of religion. The serpent was able to represent this as humiliating to man. ‘The difference is not ultimate; transgress the command and you shall be as God’ (Gen. 3:4 f.). Man’s will to live was thus turned into sin, and from sin into transgression. The woman, soon joined by the man, saw that the forbidden tree was ‘to be desired’ (Gen. 3:6).
It is possible that Paul is not simply describing the fate of Adam, which he had read in the Old Testament, but telling his own story in the light of Genesis. The tenth commandment proved to be the psychological means by which sin was stirred to activity within his own experience. It has often been pointed out that to prohibit some course of action is to awaken desire to pursue it. It may be therefore that Paul is thinking of an occasion in his youth when the legal prohibition awakened revolt within his soul, not simply in the sense that he discovered what fun it can be to break a rule but in the sense pointed out above: the passion for independence, for autonomy, that is unwilling to acknowledge a Lord (cf. 1:21).
9–10 The next verse looks even more like autobiography. When sin is dead (v. 8), man can live. Apart from law I was alive once; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.
The autobiographical interpretation would run as follows. In the first innocence of youth Paul was alive. Death is the consequence of sin (6:23), and there was at that time no sin to incur it. Life is from God, and there was nothing to interrupt the child’s natural and instinctive communion with him. Then came the moment when the Jewish boy became a ‘Son of the Commandment’ (bar mitzwah), and assumed responsibility before the law. With this new legal responsibility sin took its place in the boy’s experience. The forbidden world appeared upon his horizon, and he longed to enter it. He desired to gratify himself and to achieve independence of the God who placed unwelcome restraint upon him. This was death.
When we turn back to the narrative of Gen. 3, all that need be added is precise reference to the warning, ‘In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die’ (Gen. 2:17; cf. 3:19).
It will be well at this point to set out clearly the various lines of interpretation that have been and may be offered here. (a) There is a purely autobiographical interpretation. Paul speaks of his early childhood, and of the end that was put to it by an awareness of the law and of his responsibility to it. As soon as law entered his experience, so also did sin. (b) is a variant of (a): Paul is not writing of his own but of the whole Jewish experience. This is what being a Jew, aware of the divine law, means. He uses the first person singular in order to add greater vividness to his discussion. (c) Paul gives an exposition of the story of Adam, the universal Man, based on the story of Creation, Command, and Fall in Gen. 1–3. (d) Paul is combining two or more of these lines of thought. This seems in fact to be correct. Allusions to Genesis are not verbal, but at various points it is impossible to mistake the figure of Adam. At the same time, Paul would not have expressed the story of Adam in terms of the first personal pronoun had he not recognized that it applied to him; he knew the truth of 2 Baruch liv. 19, Each one of us is his own Adam. And he knew it not because he was a unique individual, Saul of Tarsus, but because he was a Jew, born under the law.
At the end of the verse the process is summarized: the very commandment that was directed towards life resulted for me in death. Paul achieves brevity by leaving out middle steps. The commandment was intended not to produce life, for this it could not do (Gal. 3:21), but to preserve life, by restraining man from evil courses that could issue in death. This was true of the command of Gen. 2:17, which, if observed, would have saved Adam from death; it was true of the law under whose sway the Jewish boy entered; see for example Deut. 30:15–20. The commandment resulted in death precisely because it was aimed at life, and that under threat of penalties; resisted by sin, the sanctions of Gen. 2:17 and Deut. 30:15–20 came into effect. Life is that to which the law points when it directs man to be content with the place in creation that God has accorded him. But all these well-intentioned institutions have produced a race under sentence of death, and already the cancer of corrupting bondage (8:21) is felt and seen in human affairs; it suffices to refer to 1:18–3:20.
11 The commandment achieved this unintended result not because of a defect in itself but through the attack, and the deceitfulness, of sin, which in what follows is almost personified. It could not be made clearer that, whatever law may be, it is not to be identified with sin. For sin took its opportunity (cf. v. 8), deceived me by means of the commandment, and—again by means of it—killed me. This is almost a quotation from Gen. 3:13, to which Paul alludes again at 2 Cor. 11:3 (cf. 1 Tim. 2:14). It was the commandment that gave the serpent (who contributes not a little to the personification of sin) his opportunity. The commandment singled out the forbidden tree and its property of giving divine knowledge; and this last in turn made it easy to twist the warning, Ye shall not surely die. Law, which begins by drawing attention to the gulf that separates man from God, is shaped by man into a bridge across the gulf. Sin, not law, killed me, contradicting the purpose of the law. This is man’s abuse of the religion (pp. 52 f.) that is instinctive to him, never a greater abuse than when a law, a religion, that is no human instinct but the word of God is so misused. The law is a good gift and a reason for thankfulness (9:4), but it is no ground for boasting (2:17).
12 The law then is absolved; it is not sin. The law then is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous, and good. Scripture is holy (1:2) because it comes from God; whatever may be true of other religions and of other codes of morals, those in the Old Testament are the word of God himself. The ‘commandment’ suggests the special enactments of the Mosaic code (and perhaps Gen. 2:17). These too are holy; they are righteous, in that they command what is right (cf. Gal. 3:21); and they are good, that is, beneficent in their intention. Paul’s argument hitherto has evidently been intended to vindicate this holy, righteous, and beneficent character of the law.
13 What then is wrong? Did that which in itself is good (Prov. 4:2 was sometimes made the basis of an identification of the law with ‘the good’) prove in my case to be death? The question must be asked, because death has in fact resulted (vv. 10 f.). But the answer is clear: No indeed. The fault does not lie with the law in itself. The fact is that sin, in order that it might be shown up as sin, used that good thing (the law) to bring forth death for me. The fault lies entirely with sin, again personified. Paul writes here what may be described as a kind of myth, in which sin and law are described, and behave, as persons, one taking advantage of the other. We shall shortly see that Paul the mythographer becomes his own demythologizer. The means by which sin took advantage of the situation created by law have already been brought out in the preceding verses and need not be repeated now. It is to be noted that this verse betrays not the least interest in psychology; Paul simply states that sin led to death—the doom of creation separated from the Creator; and that this happened in order that sin might stand out in its true colours. The serpent had promised (Gen. 3:5) that men should be as God; but the rebellion begun with the highest conceivable hope ended in condemnation and death. Sin might appear as human progress, or in any other attractive guise; but death proved it to be—nothing but sin. The most damning feature of its disclosure was the fact that sin had used in its death-dealing work God’s good gift, the law. Sin did this in order that, by means of the commandment, it might be shown up as exceedingly sinful. The second purpose clause is parallel to the first, but goes further. Sin, in its deceitful use of law and commandment, is revealed not merely in its true colours but in the worst possible light. The purpose was God’s (cf. 5:20; also Gal. 3:19), and it showed a second use of the law.
One point in Paul’s argument is not perfectly clear; he has not shown whether law precedes sin (as the condition in which it appears), or follows it (with the intention of unmasking its true character). He seems to think of it both ways. It is, however, unfair to expect perfect clarity here, where clarity could be attained only by plunging more deeply into mythological speech than Paul intends to do. He has brought out the subtle interrelation of law and sin; the holiness of the former and the exceeding sinfulness of the latter. It is not too much to suppose that it was precisely these points that he intended to bring out.
But he has not yet done with the matter. Law and sin are still engaged in conflict, and their battle-ground is human life. Their mutual relations may be observed further in this field. This is the point at which Paul must demythologize his story of personified abstracts. What he has to say is not unlike an existential account of human nature and its struggles, but the process retains from the myth an objective element which complements the subjective.
Barrett, C. K. (1991). The Epistle to the Romans (Rev. ed., pp. 133–137). London: Continuum.
Bob Utley says;
7:9 “I was once alive” This could refer to Paul as (1) a child during the age of innocence; or (2) as a committed Pharisee before the truth of the gospel broke into his heart (cf. Acts 23:1; Phil. 3:6; 2 Tim. 1:3). The first represents “the autobiographical theory” of interpretation of chapter 7 and the second “the representative theory” of interpretation of chap. 7.
© “when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died” Mankind’s rebellious spirit is energized by prohibitions. The “do not” of God’s Law triggers the self directing pride of fallen humanity (cf. Gen. 2:16–17; 3:1–6). Notice how sin continues to be personified, as in 5:21 and 7:8, 11, 17, 20.
7:10 “the commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me” This is probably a reference to the promise of Lev. 18:5 or possibly Rom. 2:13. The Law promised what it could not fulfill, not because it was sinful, but because humanity is weak and rebellious. The Law became a death sentence (cf. Gal. 3:13; Eph. 2:15; Col. 2:14).
7:11 “deceived me and through it killed me” These are both AORIST ACTIVE INDICATIVE VERBS. This term, deceived, is used of Eve in the Septuagint (LXX) in Gen. 3:13. Paul uses this term several times (cf. Rom. 16:18; 1 Cor. 3:18; 2 Cor. 11:3; 2 Thess. 2:3; 1 Tim. 2:14). Adam and Eve’s problem was also coveting (cf. 2 Cor. 11:3; 1 Tim. 2:14). Adam and Eve died spiritually by disobeying God’s command, and so did Paul and so do all humans (1:18–3:20).
Utley, R. J. (1998). The Gospel according to Paul: Romans (Vol. Volume 5, Ro 7:9–11). Marshall, Texas: Bible Lessons International.
wolfgang_schneider — 2016-04-24T03:33:36-04:00 — #11
as you point out, it would first be necessary for Will Scholten to define his use of the term "Torah". Once he defines his uses of the term, there will most likely be no longer a need for any lengthy posts or discussion, because the answer then will be "yes" or "no"
will_scholten — 2016-04-24T07:38:30-04:00 — #12
Thank you Brian,
for bringing that thread over to this, then if anyone has any questions on what is brought up here, they can go there!
will_scholten — 2016-04-24T21:32:30-04:00 — #13
It does not matter how "I" define "Torah".
In the beginning of this topic, I tried to show how I think the scriptures define it, although Wolfgang did remind me about Romans 7 also.
I will work on more scriptures about it to, but I was working on Genesis 26:5.
I started with decrees/statutes, I remember hearing that statutes were "set times", the screen shot will verify that.
I would think "set times" to be times set by YHWH, like 7th day Sabbaths and Festivals.
I will work on commands and laws later.
Did anyone else aready do a study on this? Please respond!
wolfgang_schneider — 2016-04-25T02:54:37-04:00 — #14
It most certainly does matter ... even though you think you do not define it but Scripture defines it, it is still YOUR interpretation / understanding of Scripture which you propose as "how Scripture defines it".
As others have pointed out, some of your interpretation of how Scripture defines it, appears to not really be how Scripture defines it, seeing that they read the Scriptures and understand them quite differently from your interpretation ...
will_scholten — 2016-04-27T20:45:21-04:00 — #15
Here is a "word search" on (instruction) H8451.
I tried to copy and paste all the scriptures, but it said the file is to big,
My answer is;
10 if you obey the LORD your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
The New International Version. (2011). (Dt 30:10). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
49 The same law applies both to the native-born and to the foreigner residing among you.”
The New International Version. (2011). (Ex 12:49). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
They did not have it in writing, but they had it!
Both references are taken out of my "word search"
will_scholten — 2016-04-27T21:02:40-04:00 — #16
A word search on "commands"
6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
The New International Version. (2011). (Ex 20:6). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
This is one verse that tells us how to recieve love/mercy/grace.
So yes the scriptures do tell us they had to obey the commands, decrees and instructions/Torah.
bkmitchell — 2016-04-28T10:04:52-04:00 — #17
Torah does not mean instructions, as the word Torah is singular. The plural form Torot/תּוֹרוֹת, does, however, mean instructions.
The scriptures/Tanakh do tell as that the Children of Israel had to obey the book of Instruction or the Torah of Moses. The Tanakh, however, nowhere says that all mankind had to follow the Torah of Moses. The rest of mankind, however, may have or have had instructions from Heaven, but that does not mean that they were identical with the 613 instructions give only to the children of Israel and those who join the children of Israel.
will_scholten — 2016-04-28T20:51:52-04:00 — #18
This verse does a pretty good job of saying it.
13 Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the duty of all mankind.
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.
The New International Version. (2011). (Ec 12:13–14). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
I do think this is correct, we have to become Israel
will_scholten — 2016-04-29T21:41:32-04:00 — #19
Did Noah teach Abram YHWH'S instructions/Torah?
The Book of Jasher, says yes;
Book of Jasher, Chapter 9
1 And Haran, the son of Terah, Abram's oldest brother, took a wife in those days.
2 Haran was thirty-nine years old when he took her; and the wife of Haran conceived and bare a son, and he called his name Lot.
3 And she conceived again and bare a daughter, and she called her name Milca; and she again conceived and bare a daughter, and she called her name Sarai.
4 Haran was forty-two years old when he begat Sarai, which was in the tenth year of the life of Abram; and in those days Abram and his mother and nurse went out from the cave, as the king and his subjects had forgotten the affair of Abram.
5 And when Abram came out from the cave, he went to Noah and his son Shem, and he remained with them to learn the instruction of the Lord and his ways, and no man knew where Abram was, and Abram served Noah and Shem his son for a long time.
6 And Abram was in Noah's house thirty-nine years, and Abram knew the Lord from three years old, and he went in the ways of the Lord until the day of his death, as Noah and his son Shem had taught him; and all the sons of the earth in those days greatly transgressed against the Lord, and they rebelled against him and they served other gods, and they forgot the Lord who had created them in the earth; and the inhabitants of the earth made unto themselves, at that time, every man his god; gods of wood and stone which could neither speak, hear, nor deliver, and the sons of men served them and they became their gods.
Seems like a lot of references say Noah died before Abram was born, is that correct? below are references that say Noah was alive.
If the genealogies in Genesis 5 and 11:10–27 are complete, several interesting situations emerge. For example, when Abraham turned 50, Noah was still alive, while Noah’s son Shem actually outlived Abraham! (To some, this appears unlikely.) In addition Methuselah, the man with the longest life recorded in Scripture (969 years), died in Noah’s 600th year, the year of the flood (Genesis 7:11).
Redford, D. (2008). The Pentateuch (Vol. 1, pp. 43–44). Cincinnati, OH: Standard Publishing.
bkmitchell — 2016-04-30T06:53:42-04:00 — #20
Ec 12:13-14 says nothing about Torah of Moses. And, rather than using some form of the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) it instead uses Elohim leading some to believe that is speaks of something far more universal than the Torah of Moses. I would say that it simply states that everyone has the obligation of following what Elohim has commanded of them and that there is no indication in this verse nor in the rest of Hebrew Bible that the Torah of Moses was commanded for anyone other than those who were taken out of Egypt the children of Israel.
Torah is singular and it only means instruction
Torat (the plural form) would mean instructions
Noah and Abram followed the personal instructions God gave to them, but there is no indication in the Hebrew Bible that they followed the Torah(Insruction) of Moses, the 613 commandments, nor the Pentatuech.
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