tyrone_howard — 2017-07-03T10:27:55-04:00 — #1
Continuing the discussion from The Trinity vs The Triune vs God-Head vs Oneness:
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-07-03T12:36:59-04:00 — #2
Where do such ideas as "baby is born a sinner" or - as here - "baby is washed clean from sin while still in the womb" come from? Is it perhaps the false doctrine that Adam's sin is "inherited" by all his descendants, that by Adam's sin all mankind are born sinners or are sinners even before their birth?
I would contend that a baby is unable to sin, because it cannot even distinguish between right and wrong or good and evil (cp various OT scriptures which establish this general truth about small children). Thus, a baby is not a sinner until the child growing up commits its first sin ... and only then will it be under the same condemnation / loss of eternal life (just as was the case with Adam). In other words, a baby is righteous when it is born ... not in need as of yet of a savior, since only sinners need a savior from sin!
dave_l — 2017-07-03T13:54:01-04:00 — #3
Why do babies die? “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 6:23 (ESV) “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.” 1 Corinthians 15:22 (ESV) “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:” Romans 5:12 (KJV 1900)
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-07-03T14:26:58-04:00 — #4
Because they are human beings, and human beings are mortal beings. Adam was NOT an immortal being when he was formed, made and created.
The wages of sin is here contrasted to the free gift of God ... it is NOT speaking about a human being's end of natural life on earth, but about a sinner's loss of eternal life ("eternal death"). Adam did NOT die (in the sense of his life on earth ending, him breathing his last breath, etc) on the very day he ate of the fruit and sinned ... however, on that very day he did die (just as God had warned him would happen) (in the sense that he lost his eternal life and as a sinner would be lost without a savior).
Indeed, with Adam sin entered into the world ... before that there was no sin in the world. But please note more carefully what the latter part of the verse says !! It does NOT say that Adam sinned on all man's behalf, and that death (loss of eternal life) passed upon all because Adam sinned, but rather because they all at some time in their lives did sin.
dave_l — 2017-07-03T14:40:48-04:00 — #5
Why do babies die according to scripture?
What would have happened had Adam not sinned and he had eaten from the Tree of Life? Would he eventually drop dead apart from sin?
“For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.” Romans 5:19 (KJV 1900)
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-07-03T15:05:33-04:00 — #6
Where does it say anything about "babies die according to scripture"? To what are you referring with your words "babies die according to scripture" ???
According to what God had told Adam, he could eat from the tree of life (cp. God's statement about "ALL trees, except the tree of knowledge of good and evil" !!) and most likely would have eaten of all the trees in the garden ... A change came in after Adam had sinned ... which made it necessary for God to keep Adam from eating of the tree of life in his fallen state ...
Scripture does not tell us what would or might have happened if Adam had not sinned.
The one man Adam by his disobedience introduced sin into the world which led to many committing sin, the other one man, Christ Jesus, by his obedience introduced redemption and salvation from sin which led to many receiving righteousness as they believe on him and confess him as Lord.
dave_l — 2017-07-03T15:14:09-04:00 — #7
It speaks often of babies dying. Paul says it is because of sin inherited from Adam. What do you think causes it if not sin?
So would Adam have died anyway had he not sinned and had eaten from the tree of life?
So why do all without exception lie from their mother's wombs? “The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.” Psalm 58:3 (ESV)
“as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”” Romans 3:10–18 (ESV)
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-07-03T15:42:20-04:00 — #8
No, Paul does NOT say anything like it .... Dave_L incorrectly says that Paul says ...!
tyrone_howard — 2017-07-03T16:07:01-04:00 — #9
Thanks everyone for input on this Topc.
@Wolfgang_Schneider This topic thread comes 1) a frequently used statement about Baby's Life/Death before they are of Age and 2) a continuation of what inadvertantly became subject matter by way of responses on previous thread.
Not because of Pre-determined false or accurate doctrine by any authority on such matters.
I simply believe while its true all humans are born in sin, and conceived in iniquity Jesus Christ on the Cross took care of this and every curse Adam placed upon Man-kind. So The baby doesn't need to confess a savior because Jesus already is, and the baby cannot deny his/her salvation through Sin untill they are of Age.
I'm not sure how you misconstrued the Curse of the First Adam which is plain in scripture, nor attempt to remove the implication of his Sin by way of natural and spiritual death. Both occurred. not either/or. . . unless you can provide some scripture which states otherwise. . .you are repeating the same lie the serpent told Eve in the wilderness -
@Dave_L Babies Die because evil exist in our world. You don't see this Before the Sin of Adam, so we must associate this with that Curse unless scripture can provide another answer. Since this is in-fact true, then the Sacrifice of Jesus would also suffice for the redemption of the babies soul and only when the child comes of Age, a denial of Jesus as Saviour could cost them their eternal life.Although many times, Jesus will pursue them in hopes they will confess they are lost and condemned without him.
tyrone_howard — 2017-07-03T16:15:16-04:00 — #10
@Dave_L in response to your reply on http://christiandiscourse.com/t/the-trinity-vs-the-triune-vs-god-head-vs-oneness/2586/510?u=tyrone_howard
I don't disagree, except with Maybe your wording. It is true that Babies in the womb #1 can die and #2 are conceived in iniquity. HOWEVER My contention is that Jesus Christ Sacrifice suffices for them, as he stated he chose us out of our mothers womb, and while we were yet sinners died for us. If in our conception and birth was in Sin, then also was our redemption by Jesus Christ. If then an end of life occurs before coming of Age, Eternal Life with the Father awaits.
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-07-04T01:26:08-04:00 — #11
The idea of "all humans are born in sin and conceived in iniquity" contradicts the idea that "the baby already in the womb has received salvation" .... therefore one or both of these two ideas are incorrect.
Well, tell me, did Adam's life on earth end the day he ate of the fruit and disobeyed God? Scripture speaks about Adam and his wife having children after that say he sinned, so obviously he must have continued to live after he sinned.
On the other hand, God had told Adam that "ON THE DAY you eat of the fruit, you WILL SURELY DIE" ... God did not say, on that day you will begin to die, did He? I say, Adam DID DIE ON THAT VERY DAY .... so then, in what regard did Adam surely die on that day when he disobeyed God and ate of the fruit of that tree of which he was not to eat? It obviously had nothing to do with his natural life on earth, because that continued.
It should be obvious, that I am NOT AT ALL repeating the same lie the serpent told Eve ... rather, it seems, that those who believe that the serpent was talking about natural death are actually the ones repeating the lie. Natural death as the end of a human being's earthly life is obviously NOT the wage of sin ... because if that were the case, Adam should have dropped dead when he ate of the fruit, and any human being should have dropped dead the day they commit a sin.
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-07-04T01:36:56-04:00 — #12
Did Adam's disobedience / sin make all humans sinners without them doing anything and even long before they are conceived? or were only "many" (but not "all") made sinners? If not all but only many, who are those who are not part of the "many"?
In contrast, IF Adam's disobedience made all to be sinners, then Jesus' obedience would make all righteous ... in either case, becoming a sinner and becoming righteous would happen without any man doing anything? Were all humans made sinners at the point in time when Adam disobeyed and sinned? If so, were all humans made righteous at the point in time when Christ obeyed and gave his life as a ransom?
It seems to me that the ideas you propose and for which you try and use Rom 5:19 as your proof text are not in harmony with what Scripture indeed teaches concerning this topic.
dave_l — 2017-07-04T05:13:23-04:00 — #13
“Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’” John 3:5–7 (ESV)
We are born flesh = sin. And unless God gives us a New Birth of the Spirit, we remain damned from the moment of conception.
dave_l — 2017-07-04T05:17:05-04:00 — #14
So abortion is good. And the abortionists send more people to heaven that the evangelists do? Because we know most grow up to reject Christ.
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-07-04T08:38:44-04:00 — #15
This has nothing to do with "inherited sin" etc ....
Why are you not in detail replying to the points I raised in my reply to you concerning your interpretation of Rom 5:19 ?
dave_l — 2017-07-04T09:22:32-04:00 — #16
Where did death come from? If death is the price we pay for sin and infants die? Was God Just in having pregnant Canaanite women slaughtered along with their children? If the babies were sinless? Paul says people are by nature the children of wrath.
“Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.” Ephesians 2:3 (KJV 1900)
tyrone_howard — 2017-07-04T12:03:06-04:00 — #17
Yes. Adam did die. Did he stop breathing? No. But that is not the definition of life, to breathe. Nor death to stop.
Death is the separation of spirit from flesh and on that day the spirit of God, even the Holy Ghost was taken from Adam. Evident in the loss of Dominion over earth among other things.
Also, now he was forbidden from eating of the tree of life resulting in the second death he expierenced at the culmination of his natural existence as his soul left to sheoul.
So yes, he did die that day we are in agreement, and also he sealed even a second death for himself. Man was not created to die, nor hell as a holding place.
Both deaths occurred that day. Elohim is life, if he leaves you that is death no other way around it. You can separate natural and spiritual, but his flesh naturally died that day as it was separated from the spirit of life. He continued to breathe, but was dead in sin naturally and spiritually.
David testified we are concieved in iniquity, born altogether in si, man looks at birth at the exiting of the womb but this is not scripture else abortion would not be murder. Life begins at conception. Jesus sacrifice cleans all men without them doing anything.
A later place in life, coming of age gives way to sin and choice and a concious decision is made to give our life in response to his death else we deny he was dying for us. Before this decision is made though, if we never reach that age we never reject and are therefore saved.
tyrone_howard — 2017-07-04T12:07:15-04:00 — #18
All things work to the will of God. Even the evil man does.
While the aborter has sinned , the child has not. The child had no choice and that soul is saved.
You cannot call abortion Good for it is not Good that even one sinned, even in the saving of another. To give your life in exchange for another is love, but it is not the will of the father to risk losing your soul for another soul.
dave_l — 2017-07-04T13:31:51-04:00 — #19
Sin is not merely an external act. It is a condition all are born into. Paul says people are by nature the children of wrath. Jesus says adults murder and commit adultery in the thought realm apart from ever committing the physical act. And all infants manifest hatred in their self-centered tantrums and the like.
You cannot sustain your position from scripture because the Old Testament says more than once that children do not know right from wrong. Yet God Justly ordered their slaughter on many occasions. “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:” Romans 3:10 (KJV 1900)
Do you think abortion is a good thing? Since you think babies go to heaven when they die?
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-07-04T13:51:46-04:00 — #20
What does Scripture define as "death"? when does a person "die"?
Cp. Gen 5 and what it says about Adam and how long he lived and how old he was when he died ... he had lived 130 years when he begat Seth, then lived another 800 years, and he then died when he was 930 old. Yes?
Now cp Gen 2:17 where God rather plainly and clearly tells Adam that "in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." and then Gen 3:5 where we read that Adam did in fact eat of the fruit of that tree.
Did he "die" on that day or not? Since God is not a liar, it should be clear that what God had said would come to pass in fact did come to pass ... on that very day, Adam DIED. In what regard did he die on that day? Did he lose his natural life, the breath of life, and stop breathing? No. So then, the death Adam experienced on that day was not the end of his natural life, the end of his breathing life. The death Adam experienced on that day as the wages of sin was NOT death in the sense of the end of his natural life.
To learn what death is the wage of sin and which death Adam on that day experienced, we can compare what "life" it is that a person is given when being saved from the condemnation of sin. Is that life a person's natural breathing life? Obviously not. The life which is given when being saved is "life into the ages" / "everlasting life". Thus it follows very clearly that sin brings as its wages with it "eternal death", the loss of eternal life!
Mixing up these two kinds of "death" described and spoken of in Scripture will cause endless misinterpretations and false understandings, some of which I am seeing in your as well as Tyrone's posts.
Here we see a prime example of misinterpretation due to not distinguishing what kind of death is spoken of ...
This is an entirely different context and has nothing to do with whether these women and children had committed some sins or inherited sins etc ... they were part of a just judgment of God upon the occupants of the land.
Please note, Paul does NOT say "by descent the children of wrath" or "by inheritance the children of wrath"
next page →