wolfgang_schneider — 2017-09-17T10:34:33-04:00 — #1
One of the frequently used terms in today's Christian circles is "born again". Many in those circles use the term and give the impression as if they know exactly what it means who are the "born again". However, is what they talk about even what Scripture says about it???
I think a few questions for clarification from Scripture testimony (not from popular theology doctrines and dogmas) are warranted, for example:
- To what does "born again" refer (some event that relates to this
life, or eternal life)?
- Is the term used with a literal meaning or describe something by
means of a figure of speech in a transferred sense?
- Who is a born again person? When does this "born again" / "new
- What happens in a person's life at the time of this "new birth/
being born again"?
There may be more points and aspects of interest to be studied together.
I am looking forward to insights using Scripture text.
dave_l — 2017-09-17T11:04:01-04:00 — #2
I found these verses that help define the new birth. Circumcision of heart leads to the same basic definition as new birth. So we might say they speak of the same event in a person's life. Also the new birth passages share the common themes of Love and temperament with the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3)
“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14)
“Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.” (John 3:7)
“Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.” (1 Peter 1:23)
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:9)
“The LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.” (Deuteronomy 30:6)
“Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.” (1 John 4:7–8)
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and self-control; against such there is no law. Those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.” (Galatians 5:22–24)
"But he is a Jew who is one inwardly. And circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, and not by the letter. His praise is not from men, but from God.” (Romans 2:29)
“For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.” (1 John 5:4)
“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)
“As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.” (1 Peter 2:2–3)
“Yet to all who received Him, He gave the power to become sons of God, to those who believed in His name, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:12–13)
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,” (1 Peter 1:3)
“Of His own will He brought us forth with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first fruits of His creatures.” (James 1:18)
will_scholten — 2017-09-20T16:55:13-04:00 — #3
Yes, Dave, I think you hit on some key verses!!
But I think we have to go deeper to see what some of them tell us.
Now what does John tell us sin is?
3 And everyone who has this hope in him continues purifying himself, since God is pure. 4 Everyone who keeps sinning is violating Torah—indeed, sin is violation of Torah. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and that there is no sin in him. 6 So no one who remains united with him continues sinning; everyone who does continue sinning has neither seen him nor known him.
Stern, D. H. (1998). Complete Jewish Bible: an English version of the Tanakh (Old Testament) and B’rit Hadashah (New Testament) (1st ed., 1 Jn 3:3–6). Clarksville, MD: Jewish New Testament Publications.
Can a person be "born again" and not keep the Torah, according to this verse?
Is it possible to break Sabbath, the dietary laws, and keep the world holidays and ignore the Father"s Holy Days?
If YHWH is the same YTT, how long is "forever"?
How did OT Israel get a circumcised heart?
Some tough questions we need to answer very soon!!
dave_l — 2017-09-20T17:30:29-04:00 — #4
I think we lit on this earlier. And my position is always people who are born again have a new nature governed by the Holy Spirit. And because of this, they fulfill the Law in their sleep without trying.
We are under the New Covenant. So we are no longer under those customs. Instead, we break the New Covenant by observing them.
I've answered these time and again. God circumcises the hearts of the elect. Any OT believer listed in Hebrews eleven had a circumcised heart or else they would not have believed. God also told the unbelievers to circumcise their hearts showing how impossible it is to follow the path of self improvement under the Law. By doing so he proved how worthy of his sever judgements they were.
will_scholten — 2017-09-20T20:22:07-04:00 — #5
So Yahusha and the apostles broke the covenant by observing them all the way through the NT writings.
Something to give you a red flag, is if they were observed though the whole NT, it changed afterwards, so you listen to the commands of man, over the commands of YHWH!!
If YHWH commanded them, who would you say has the power to over ride what YHWH commands????
will_scholten — 2017-09-21T06:35:36-04:00 — #6
What does the Holy Spirit cause you to do???
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and fa new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to iwalk in my statutes, and ye shall jkeep my judgments, and do them.
The Holy Bible: King James Version. (2009). (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version., Eze 36:25–27). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the LORD.
**“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the LORD,’
because they will all know me,**
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the LORD.
The New International Version. (2011). (Je 31:33–34). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Has this happened yet?
Does everyone know YHWH?
Yes, it even tells us te same thing in the NT!!!
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 †And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
The Holy Bible: King James Version. (2009). (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version., Heb 10:15–17). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
Please note, verse 17, does not happen, until the final "Day of Atonement"!!!
dave_l — 2017-09-21T06:39:22-04:00 — #7
There is no command telling anyone to keep the Sabbath or any other tradition in the NT.
will_scholten — 2017-09-21T06:52:38-04:00 — #8
Did they keep it as was they're custom?
9 So there remains a Shabbat-keeping for God’s people. 10 For the one who has entered God’s rest has also rested from his own works, as God did from his.
Stern, D. H. (1998). Complete Jewish Bible: an English version of the Tanakh (Old Testament) and B’rit Hadashah (New Testament) (1st ed., Heb 4:9–10). Clarksville, MD: Jewish New Testament Publications.
That sounds like a command to me!!! It has NEVER changed, did it!!
dave_l — 2017-09-21T07:04:42-04:00 — #9
If you want to experience the Sabbath rest as described in Hebrews, stop keeping the physical Sabbath and any other OT custom.
will_scholten — 2017-09-21T18:07:00-04:00 — #10
Here is a screen shot of Hebrews 4! What does Sabbath rest mean? Sabbath observance!!!
Where in scripture does it ever command a change to the "day of the sun"or even hint at the change.
You tell me there is no command for the Sabbath, I showed you Hebrews 4 as proof.
Now I ask you where is the proof IN SCRIPTURE for the "day of the sun" being commanded for a replacement day of the 7th day Sabbath????
If you don't like YHWH'S Feast and Sabbath now, what makes you think you would like them when Yahusha returns for His 1000 years of Sabbaths.
These are rehearsals for what is to come.
dave_l — 2017-09-21T18:58:32-04:00 — #11
You mis the meaning of the entire passage. The OT Sabbath symbolized the rest we have in Christ who abolished the law (works) bringing rest to those who trust in his righteousness instead of their own.
will_scholten — 2017-09-21T19:09:19-04:00 — #12
Or you can show me, where YHWH blest and made holy/sacred any other day than the 7th day!
Goes right back to Matt. 15:9, we need to listen to YHWH, not man!!
dave_l — 2017-09-21T19:41:48-04:00 — #13
But he also abolished the Old Covenant replacing it with the New. There is no mention of Sabbath keeping in the New. And Hebrews speaks of the rest we have in Christ when we cease from the works of the Law.
will_scholten — 2017-09-21T19:56:08-04:00 — #14
I just showed you it does, in Hebrews 4!!
9 So there remains a Shabbat-keeping for God’s people. 10 For the one who has entered God’s rest has also rested from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Therefore, let us do our best to enter that rest; so that no one will fall short because of the same kind of disobedience
Stern, D. H. (1998). Complete Jewish Bible: an English version of the Tanakh (Old Testament) and B’rit Hadashah (New Testament) (1st ed., Heb 4:9–11). Clarksville, MD: Jewish New Testament Publications.
10 For the one who has entered God’s rest has also rested from his own works, as God did from his.
This does not tell us to rest from the law!!! YHWH didn't rest from the law, but showed us how to stop from the work we do in the other 6 days!!
11 Therefore, let us do our best to enter that rest; so that no one will fall short because of the same kind of disobedience
This is not telling us the torah is done, but not to be disobedient as they were. What did they do to be disobedient???
dave_l — 2017-09-22T05:42:21-04:00 — #15
And I understand Hebrews 4 speaking of the rest believers have in Christ when they leave the Old Covenant for the New.
will_scholten — 2017-09-22T06:37:02-04:00 — #16
So then explain with scripture;
1- why most churches set aside the "day of the sun"
2- where it says YHWH made another day blessed and holy/sacred
3- where is the command to stop keeping the 7th day Sabbath
4- where is the command to keep the "day of the sun"
**6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
7 Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning.**
The New International Version. (2011). (1 Jn 2:6–7). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
I know some of you will want to use this verse, but it is telling us not to obey HUMAN rules;
Freedom From Human Rules
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19 They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
The New International Version. (2011). (Col 2:16–23). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Yahusha died and set us free from human teachings, not YHWH'S Torah!!!!
dave_l — 2017-09-22T06:39:38-04:00 — #17
We are not under the Old Covenant. Christians always met on Sunday (including Pentecost Sunday) when the Kingdom of God took form.
will_scholten — 2017-09-22T06:45:19-04:00 — #18
So show me where in scripture, the followers of Yahusha kept Sunday.
Pentecost Sunday?? I will find this discussion later, but it is not 50 days after the weekly Sabbath, but has to be 50 days after the High Sabbath.
dave_l — 2017-09-22T06:49:56-04:00 — #19
They didn't keep Sunday legalistically. But they came together on Pentecost Sunday when Christ initiated the Kingdom. It says they met on the first day of the week.
“On the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to leave the next day, preached to them and continued his message until midnight.” (Acts 20:7)
“On the first day of the week let every one of you lay in store, as God has prospered him, so that no collections be made when I come.” (1 Corinthians 16:2)
It says nothing about Saturday gatherings.
will_scholten — 2017-09-22T06:56:05-04:00 — #20
This screen shot says it does!
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