bkmitchell — 2017-08-07T10:43:27-04:00 — #1
That he didn’t sin is a settled and undeniable fact. But could he have sinned? Was it in any way a possibility for him to have sinned, or was it in every way impossible that he should ever have transgressed? Or, to use theological terms, was Jesus impeccable (incapable of sinning), or peccable (capable of sinning, although remaining sinless)?
dave_l — 2017-08-07T11:17:47-04:00 — #2
Jesus is one fully Divine person with two natures. One fully human, the other fully divine.
So, God cannot sin. Because sin is the breaking of a law. And there is no other god who imposes a law on God. So Jesus as far as his human nature is concerned, could be tested by Satan, but he had no inner lust working against him.
88.308 πειράζωc; ἐκπειράζωc; πειρασμόςb, οῦ m: to endeavor or attempt to cause someone to sin—‘to tempt, to trap, to lead into temptation, temptation.’
πειράζωc: ἦν ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ τεσσεράκοντα ἡμέρας πειραζόμενος ὑπὸ τοῦ Σατανᾶ ‘he stayed for forty days in the desert and Satan tried to make him sin’ Mk 1:13. In translating expressions involving tempting or trying, it is necessary in a number of languages to indicate clearly whether or not the temptations succeeded. Therefore, it may not be sufficient in Mk 1:13 to simply say ‘Satan tempted him’; in fact, in some instances it may be necessary to make the failure of the temptation quite specific, for example, ‘Satan tried to make Jesus sin, but was not successful.’
Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, p. 774). New York: United Bible Societies.
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-08-07T11:30:11-04:00 — #3
Therefore the writer of Hebrews was mistaken and obviously Hebrews is not God inspired Scripture
Hebr 4,15 (AV)
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.
Or perhaps the "Jesus=Deity theology" propagated above and by others is heresy?
dave_l — 2017-08-07T11:49:24-04:00 — #4
The definition is "tested". But what if it is "tempted"? It does not change the fact that Satan tempted Jesus but Jesus having no lust was not Tempted. People can provoke a fight and we can say the person was provoked to fight. But he did not respond.
Jesus is God as stated in scripture. Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. Jude 5 (ESV)
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-08-07T12:30:43-04:00 — #5
it's not about "tested" or "tempted" ... it's about "LIKE AS WE ARE" ....
As for "a person was provoked to fight" and "he did not respond" ... the person most surely responded (!!), and he did so by willfully rejecting the provocation and refusing to fight.
According to Heb 4:15, Jesus was tempted like as we are, yet he willfully refused to give in to the temptation ...
According to Dave_L, Jesus was not tempted like as we are and could not even really be tempted.
dave_l — 2017-08-07T14:12:23-04:00 — #6
Jesus was without sin, we are not.
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. James 1:13–14 (KJV 1900)
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-08-07T15:14:51-04:00 — #7
Yes ... but we are NOT talking about "sin" or "without sin" ... we are talking about TEMPTED or "not TEMPTED"
Exactly .... and since Heb 4:15 clearly states that Jesus WAS TEMPTED, it should be obvious that he could not therefore have been God.
Other options would be that Heb 4:!5 is a false statement, or Jam 1:13-14 is a false statement. ...
dave_l — 2017-08-07T16:29:01-04:00 — #8
If someone tempts someone else, it only means they tempted them. It does not mean the person they tried to tempt was actually tempted. ‘Satan tried to make Jesus sin, but was not successful.’ Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament:
Think of it this way. People push your buttons trying to make you mad, but your buttons do not work.
The writer of Hebrews knew what he was saying. You do not.
Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. Jude 5 (ESV)
gao_lu — 2017-08-07T18:43:11-04:00 — #9
Side note: some of those whom God says were saved, did not believe and were destroyed weren't really saved, or were they?
will_scholten — 2017-08-07T20:39:22-04:00 — #10
I think so, I think He had to fight off His temptations to.
I am so happy He was able to do it, and He had to do it being fully man!
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-08-08T02:41:28-04:00 — #11
So then "to be tempted" does not mean "to be tempted" but rather means "to sin" ??
I have had people tempt me at various occasions in my life and I willfully decided to refuse their temptation and stick with what I knew was right .... and you would say, I was not even tempted in those situations???? Seems to me that you falsely equate "temptation" with "sin".
Same misconception about "sin" and "temptation" ... and ALL of this is based on and due to the false doctrine of "Jesus=God" !!!!
Heb 4:15 flat out and as clear as day states that Jesus "WAS TEMPTED" ... instead of acknowledging this plain truth and forsaking the false doctrine, you (and all others who adhere to a trinity or Jesus=God dogma) try and uphold the false doctrine and flat out contradict what Heb 4:15 says.
See above ... the buttons did not work, because I refused people to push them !! Did they try to push them and was I tempted to let them push them? Most certainly. Actually, there have been times where I was tempted to get mad and rejected the temptation, and there have been a few times where I was tempted to get mad and I gave in to the temptation and got mad. The truth is => In both cases I WAS TEMPTED to get mad !! '
I say the same as the writer of Heb .. YOU ARE THE ONE who flat out contradicts what Heb 4:15 states.
I fully knew and fully know that Jesus was not a living being at that time doing anything ... and that Gal 4:4 declares that "when the time was fulfilled" (and NOT BEFORE THAT TIME !!) Jesus was conceived and born of a woman ... which we can read about in Mt 1:18ff and Lk 2:1ff.
Now, I do also fully know that truth about the coming Messiah Jesus has been revealed throughout OT times (starting from Gen 3:15) and faith in the coming Messiah has been what was accounted to people for righteousness and salvation (cp Abraham ... Rom 4)
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-08-08T04:42:16-04:00 — #12
Just as the first Adam was capable of sinning, the second Adam was capable of sinning. If that was not the case, Jesus could not have been the Messiah and redeemed man (cp Rom 5:12ff -- where Adam's disobedience is contrasted with Jesus' obedience).
The difference between Jesus and Adam was, that Jesus not only "was without sin" (something which Adam also was !!), but also willfully did not give in to but resisted temptation, even though he was tempted to sin as Adam was and like as we all are (cp. Heb 4:15)
dave_l — 2017-08-08T07:12:40-04:00 — #13
Saved means different things in scripture. Look at the depravity of the Jews whom God saved out of Egypt. Only two of the original mass made it into the promised land. And then it was repeated idolatry, overt wickedness and finally the worst tribulation ever in the destruction of Jerusalem. Only the born again (circumcised in heart) did God save in the sense of granting eternal life.
gao_lu — 2017-08-08T18:13:30-04:00 — #14
Thanks for sharing your views.