bkmitchell — 2017-10-01T02:25:45-04:00 — #1
Do we really have free will? Today Hank explores possible answers to that question, explaining theories like libertarian free will and it’s counterpoint, hard determinism.
dave_l — 2017-10-01T05:22:20-04:00 — #2
Paul says; “But thanks be to God, for you were slaves of sin [the reasons you chose sin], but you have obeyed from the heart [the new birth nature] that form of teaching to which you were entrusted, and having been freed from sin, you became the slaves of righteousness [the reasons you chose righteousness].” (Romans 6:17–18)
= no libertarian free will either way.
tyrone_howard — 2017-10-01T07:27:44-04:00 — #3
I came across Dr. Utleys study and commentaries on Acts where he offers some thoughts on foreknowledge and free will. The extremes of each are the danger zone, they are not supported by scripture. Man can not do anything he wants, he is not God, God cannot force man to sin, for he is not unrighteous. In the middle lies the foreknowledge, predestination and free will all working together for the Glory of God
bkmitchell — 2017-10-01T08:58:18-04:00 — #4
Thank you for posting this
I think this sounds a lot like Compatibilism
gao_lu — 2017-10-01T19:58:20-04:00 — #5
Even a slave can choose to run away, refuse to obey or be set free.
BK, how on earth did you find such a relevant youtube video? You are amazing. I am looking forward to going through this whole series on philosophy, I am hooked. Takes me back many years to those talks we had with friends, walking along the river on the university campus.
tyrone_howard — 2017-10-01T21:50:40-04:00 — #6
Umm. I'm going to choose not to label myself that, I just see evidence of ideas present in scripture that to others must be one or the other but since I see both in the Word of God then its both. If our belief contradicts anything in scripture even a jot, we are wrong not God and must go back to the drawing board
dave_l — 2017-10-02T06:42:52-04:00 — #7
But they cannot choose the true Christ unless born-again. They will always choose a false Christ and hear a false gospel.
gao_lu — 2017-10-02T06:46:02-04:00 — #8
I think you need a better analogy than a slave. Do you have something better?
dave_l — 2017-10-02T06:49:27-04:00 — #9
“Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.” (John 8:34)
“knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with Him, so that the body of sin might be destroyed, and we should no longer be slaves to sin.” (Romans 6:6)
“But thanks be to God, for you were slaves of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of teaching to which you were entrusted, and having been freed from sin, you became the slaves of righteousness.” (Romans 6:17–18)
bkmitchell — 2017-10-02T07:03:57-04:00 — #10
Sorry, I did not intend to label you and I want to apologize if compatibilism is offensive to you or if you felt hurt. I thought that what you were presenting sounded similar to compatibilism, but did not intend to refer to you as a person.
I intended the "this" in
to refer to the statement of yours I quoted, not to you personally or as a person.
But, never-the-less I apologize if what I said surprised you, hurt you, or you felt offended.
I agree with the compatibilist and also with your idea that hard-determinism and Indeterminism are two extremes to be avoided.
gao_lu — 2017-10-02T08:56:18-04:00 — #11
Yes, thanks. Those verses speak truth. However, "slave" in those instances does not seem to be related to the idea you attempting to portray. I would find it helpful if you can offer an example that does illustrate your meaning.
tyrone_howard — 2017-10-02T09:30:06-04:00 — #12
No I wasn't offended my brother, I was just saying, others can label me what they please, I'm going to choose not to label myself that. I've never been fond of labels.
bkmitchell — 2017-10-02T10:01:49-04:00 — #13
Thank you for your quick response.
I am not interested in labeling people. but rather in seeking clarification of ideas/concepts.
tyrone_howard — 2017-10-02T10:11:43-04:00 — #14
I didn't mean that you were, I just mean generally you can't stop people from labeling you something. You can take preference in whether you like labeling yourself.
bkmitchell — 2017-10-02T10:17:57-04:00 — #15
I guess I do have one label I might use for you and that is Christian or my brother in Christ.
dave_l — 2017-10-02T11:23:22-04:00 — #16
People are born sinners by nature;
“among them we all also once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and we were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.” (Ephesians 2:3)
“For when you were the slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness.” (Romans 6:20)
An example of being a slave to sin; Martin Luther used the illustration of the human will being a like a horse. And the rider is either Satan or God. But I would add; the horse is not free in either situation. Albeit, the horse is Satan's pet and prefers that Satan ride him.
tyrone_howard — 2017-10-02T11:47:21-04:00 — #17
As I, feel the same about you. Continue your thought provoking questions. They are wonderful for discussion.
bkmitchell — 2017-10-02T17:37:14-04:00 — #18
Thank you for your kind words of encouragement.
gao_lu — 2017-10-02T18:37:15-04:00 — #19
By "nature" do you mean...
- Biological processes?
- The set of features that describes the characteristics or behavior of a person?
- Something else?
I repeat: Even a slave can choose to run away, refuse to obey or be set free.
I would find more helpful, an analogy that does illustrate your meaning. I ask the second time, can you help me with that? (If not, can you offer the courtesy to refuse so I can stop bothering you by asking?)
justin_gatlin — 2017-10-02T18:48:27-04:00 — #20
I think it muddles things to consider salvation. Step back and decide if we ever have free will first, then look at specific instances. It is clear that we have free will sometimes, so hard determinism must be false. An excellent article is here: http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/54/54-2/JETS_54-2_329-44_Himes.pdf
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