bkmitchell — 2017-10-01T02:35:41-04:00 — #1
dave_l — 2017-10-01T05:01:12-04:00 — #2
The commentator does not prove his point about people having "free will". Because all of our choices depend on our nature and how it reacts to the reasons we base or choices on. Even God's will is not free. Because he has a nature and he acted according to the reasons that determined his will. Namely manifesting his glory in creation,
tyrone_howard — 2017-10-01T07:38:49-04:00 — #3
This will definitely be the end of our dialogue: For any man, in his finite mind, to believe he has an answer which includes limiting Gods will to nature means he thinks more highly of his intellect then he ought to. You rely on creeds to ground yourself to even be a believer yet you believe you can assess Gods will? Who do you think you are? Did Elohim seek your counsel in creation? Were you there when he outlined the paths for lightning ? Did he ask of you how far the seas should go, and at your advice command them to come no more? When he formed you from the dust in the ground where was your wisdom then? Where were you when time began? Who are you to answer to Gods will? You think more highly of yourself then you ought to and your wisdom is foolishness to God. No wonder you can't heed correction from other believers, you think within yourself you've figured out The almighty God. May he have mercy on your soul.
dave_l — 2017-10-01T07:46:06-04:00 — #4
You cannot trust God if he does not have a righteous nature that determines his will. Pure Sovereignty or Will alone can cancel everyone's salvation and kick them out of heaven just to prove he can do it.
gao_lu — 2017-10-01T19:43:08-04:00 — #5
Excellent presentation. Clear, sensible. In my view, the puzzle pieces of theology must snap together with reality to be correct.
- What do you think "nature" means?
- Do you think "nature" is the sum of a person?
fred — 2017-10-02T00:05:54-04:00 — #6
I agree with Dave.
God cannot will to lie. That is contrary to His nature (Numbers 23:19)
God cannot will to die. That is contrary to His nature. (Christ had 2 natures and only the human nature was capable of death.
God cannot will to change. That is contrary to His nature.Psalm 102:27
God cannot will to forget things. That is contrary to His nature.
God cannot will to stop being omnipotent. That is contrary to His nature.
God will is NOT FREE, He cannot change His nature. His nature (not His will) determines what He will do. His nature is the cause of what He wills.
gao_lu — 2017-10-02T04:37:28-04:00 — #7
God is a "rock" right? I ponder what that means to different people. God is like a rock without free will? Or something else...
Man has limits on his free will. God's will is without limits. To say "Free will" might seem to imply some higher force having power to grant or restrain that freedom. Better would be to say God has absolutely free volition. The only restraints are those God has chosen of His volition to impose.
For example, God cannot lie, but that is a choice of his volition and thus is His nature. Thus God is a rock in the sense that he is unchanging, steadfast, unmovable in His nature and character--God has 100% freedom of volition and will steadfastly and certainly--like a rock--be reliable to make right choices.
PS. I prefer theology that fits reality.
dave_l — 2017-10-02T06:37:32-04:00 — #8
This is a dangerous assumption and undermines faith. Because if God's will determines his nature, he can stop willing it and kick everyone out of heaven and replace them with everyone in hell. Just to prove he is sovereign. My faith rests in God's nature determining his will. And that he never changes.
gao_lu — 2017-10-02T06:44:25-04:00 — #9
You don't trust God to be good. That takes faith. An act of the will.
You faith is in something greater than God, some rule that governs Him. Fix that.
dave_l — 2017-10-02T06:52:05-04:00 — #10
You cannot trust God if sovereignty determines his nature. Because he can change his nature at will and turn on you.
fred — 2017-10-02T07:56:15-04:00 — #11
I guess we just disagree on what is the cause and what is the effect. I believe the cause is God's nature (attributes) and these attributes determine God's will.
For example, God is ALL-KNOWING and therefore can know the best possible plan (His decree) and the effect is He wills that plan be executed based on His attribute of being ALL-KNOWING.
You believe (IMO) that God's will determined His attribute of being ALL-KNOWING; despite being ALL-KNOWING God is yet free to execute any plan His free will desires.
I would say consequences of God's attribute (nature) of truthfulness has determined that God's will can never lie.
You believe that God's has free will is the cause of all He does and therefore He has freely willed not to lie for I don't know what reason save He is free to do so. Therefore, He is free to chose to start lying or perhaps He has been lying as He is free to do so because a FREE WILL is the His ultimate authority and not His nature(attributes). Let us hope He does not change His mind. In your system God is free to change His mind. In my system God's nature prevents Him for doing so.
Aside: My apologies if my perception of your stance is incorrect.
gao_lu — 2017-10-02T09:01:06-04:00 — #12
You say you know Him. Do you really think God would change His nature and turn on you?
Fred, were you addressing me or Dave? I presumed Dave, but now I am not sure. Doesn't fit either of us I don't think.
tyrone_howard — 2017-10-02T10:10:58-04:00 — #13
Fred consider this, if you will.
God not being able to Lie, sin, etc has nothing to do with his will but his righteousness/faithfulness. In Pizza there is no such thing as a Pizza Bone. Its Unheard of, the same with Sin in God. This is not a limitation on his will but rather a manifestation of the Ultimate Authority, and Supremacy of His will in that he cannot even be tempted, tested or enticed to do otherwise. James 1:13
God experienced Death through Christ Jesus (this may make for a separate thread). Remember, death is merely the separation of spirit from flesh, it is not the ceasing to exist. Remember Jesus is God. Therefore, When Jesus died, The Spirit of God in Christ willfully separated from the Flesh of Jesus of Nazareth, allowing the flesh(and the power of Sin with it) to perish. Hebrews 2:9
God Wills to not change, that is why he does not change. Not because he cannot but because he Will Not. Malachi 3:6
God does forget things, Thanks be to Jesus. If he didn't your sins could not truly be forgiven. Another example of his Will, not lack of: Isaiah 43:25
God's being omnipotent is not due to his WIll, but simply being God.
Fred I am curious of this:
How you pull this understanding that a nature, imposes limits or sets precedents on how something acts or behaves. A nature has to do with a state of being. If you distort the meanings of words, you can then twist text to support anything. I would advise not to go down that path.
The definition describes nature as: the basic or inherent features of something. This has nothing to do with what someone does or doesn't do. Your nature means you have eyes, yet it would be preposterous to conclude that all who have eyes, see. therefore your features do not dictate your actions or behaviors. they are merely the composite of your being.
God's nature is Divine, There are divine beings who have sinned, lied, died, refused to forget, forget, and who are not omnipotent.
dave_l — 2017-10-02T11:33:47-04:00 — #14
If God is love, his nature determines his will.
gao_lu — 2017-10-02T18:12:10-04:00 — #15
There you go with your home-made dictionary. Wish I had a copy.
Like Tyrone says, God's nature is not some external law God is bound to perform. God's nature is "the basic or inherent features of something." Same definition works for people.
bkmitchell — 2017-10-02T18:22:31-04:00 — #16
Question for clarification:
(1) What does "nature" in the above mean?
(2)What does it mean to say that God is love?
(a) Does that mean that God is loving?
(b) That God is in a state of love?
(c) That God the act of love? So whenever one is filled with love they are filled with God? Or, When one loves another they become a god or God is there?
(d) Is this figurative language?
(3) Why and how does nature determine will? It is not possible to act contrary to whatever "nature" is?
dave_l — 2017-10-02T20:01:01-04:00 — #17
Remember, you are the one who says God is free to will his nature. But I say you cannot trust a god such as this. God is Love by nature and his will is bound to his nature making him trustworthy. If God has free will as you say, we are in big trouble.
gao_lu — 2017-10-02T20:11:00-04:00 — #18
Only then are we safe--for only then could He be God. If you have some force or ideology by which God is bound, you have a dead idol greater than YHWH. I see what looks like your exact concept in Asian idol worship.
dave_l — 2017-10-02T20:22:09-04:00 — #19
He could be God but he would not be good. God is good throughout his essence and wills accordingly. If he can turn it on and off, who is to say heaven is forever? It says "God IS love" It doesn't say God chooses to be love.
gao_lu — 2017-10-02T20:37:45-04:00 — #20
I am a little startled that you really don't trust God, but trust some greater dead idol/idea/cosmic rule to have power over God. Well...thanks for sharing. That does snap together nicely with what you have said before.
God isn't good because he has to be--as if He has some master that requires it of Him. God is good because goodness is His character.
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