will_scholten — 2017-01-14T10:14:23-05:00 — #1
In the NT, we find week and day of the week, but only in a few places, most of the time it is Sabbath. See screen shot below;
I know a lot of places here it is on a "Sunday"to, but is still happening during the Festival of Weeks.
We know the scriptures teach that Yahushua will be in the center of the earth 3 days and 3 nights, we will be looking at different word meanings to make this fit together, because we are always looking for ways,that do not contradict with each other.
Please show your other interpretations of scriptures, with out contradictions!!
"Week/ day of the week" in the Scriptures?
NIV: Chapter 16
16 •When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene•, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body. 2 •Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb 3 and they asked each other, “Who will roll the stone away •from the entrance of the tomb?”
The New International Version. (2011). (Mk 16:1–3). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Yes, this verse is talking about "after the Sabbath( what we call Sunday), but is there more? How about verse 2, "first day of the week"? Is that talking about "Sunday"?
I know, you see "just after sunrise to, so where am I going!
Lets look at "sunrise"
anatéllō. “To cause to come forth” or (intransitive) “to come forth,” used in the NT for “to spring forth” in Heb. 7:14 (cf. Jer. 23:5) or “to shine forth” in 2 Pet. 1:19 (cf. Num. 24:17) with no precise distinction.
Kittel, G., Friedrich, G., & Bromiley, G. W. (1985). Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (p. 57). Grand Rapids, MI: W.B. Eerdmans.
Ok, verse one tells us, after Sabbath was over(they kept Sabbath, then went).
When does the day begin? At sunset , right!
So is it talking about the beginning of the new day? night , then light!
Tags: Mk 16:1–3
Clipped: January 14, 2017
NIV: Chapter 16
9 •When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. 10 She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping. 11 When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it.
The New International Version. (2011). (Mk 16:9–11). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Is verse 9 simply saying, Yahushua rose, then on the "first day of the week" (which once again happens to be on a "Sunday", but also the first Sabbath week.
Tags: Mk 16:9–11
Clipped: January 14, 2017
NIV: Chapter 24
Jesus Has Risen
24:1–10pp—Mt 28:1–8; Mk 16:1–8; Jn 20:1–8
24 •On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices •they had prepared and went to the tomb. 2 •They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, 3 but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.
The New International Version. (2011). (Lk 24:1–3). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
"The first day of the week" this is counting Sabbath weeks.
"Very early in the morning"
would this also be the dawn of a new day (sunset) As our "Sunday", would be beginning at sunset, not sunrise!
Tags: Lk 24:1–3
Clipped: January 14, 2017
NIV: Chapter 20
20 •Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. 2
The New International Version. (2011). (Jn 20:1–2). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
"Still" doesn't have to mean still;
- ἔτι ĕti, et´-ee; perh. akin to 2094; “yet,” still (of time or degree):—after that, also, ever, (any) further, (t-) henceforth (more), hereafter, (any) longer, (any) more (-one), now, still, yet.
Strong, J. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Vol. 1, p. 33). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.
Tags: Jn 20:1–2
Clipped: January 14, 2017
NIV: Chapter 20
19 •On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said•, “Peace be with you!” 20 •After he said this, he showed them his hands and side•. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
The New International Version. (2011). (Jn 20:19–20). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Tags: Jn 20:19–20
Clipped: January 14, 2017
NIV: Chapter 20
7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight. 8 There were many lamps in the upstairs room where we were meeting. 9 Seated in a window was a young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep as Paul talked on and on. When he was sound asleep, he fell to the ground from the third story and was picked up dead. 10 Paul went down, threw himself on the young man and put his arms around him. “Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “He’s alive!” 11 Then he went upstairs again and broke bread and ate.
The New International Version. (2011). (Ac 20:7–11). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Again, the first Sabbath week, is there a reason to suggest that it was not the Sabbath in the first week, the teaching went very long, until midnight of the following day.
Tags: Ac 20:7–11
Clipped: January 14, 2017
NIV: Chapter 16
16 Now about the collection for the Lord’s people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. 2 On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made. 3 Then, when I arrive, I will give letters of introduction to the men you approve and send them with your gift to Jerusalem. 4 If it seems advisable for me to go also, they will accompany me.
The New International Version. (2011). (1 Co 16:1–4). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
On the first Sabbath week each set aside money to send to Jerusalem. Did they do this every week?
- κατά kata; prep. of unc. or.; down, against, according to:—about(5), accord(1), accordance(12), according(140), accordingly(1), after(8), after another(1), against(52), along(1), along the coast(2), among(3), another(2), around(1), basis(1), because(2), before(1), beyond*(1), case*(2), certain(1), circumstances*(2), conforming(1), contrary(1), daily*(10), down(4), each(2), effect(1), every(10), every*(1), exactly*(1), excessively*(1), godly*(1), how*(1), inasmuch*(2), individually*(1), just(2), like(4), more(1), motives(1), natural*(1), off(2), one*(2), outwardly*(1), over(3), private*(1), privately*(7), reference(1), rightly*(1), standpoint(2), terms(2), through(1), throughout(6), together*(1), various(4), way(4), within(2).
Thomas, R. L. (1998). New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek dictionaries : updated edition. Anaheim: Foundation Publications, Inc.
Is Paul collecting for the "First Fruits"?
Now lets look at some of the OT to see if it will help us understand what is going on!
Tags: 1 Co 16:1–4
Clipped: January 14, 2017
NIV: Chapter 23
15 “ ‘From the day after the Sabbath, the day you brought the sheaf of the wave offering, count off seven full weeks. 16 Count off fifty days up to the day after the seventh Sabbath, and then present an offering of new grain to the LORD. 17 From wherever you live, bring two loaves made of two-tenths of an ephah of the finest flour, baked with yeast, as a wave offering of firstfruits to the LORD. 18 Present with this bread seven male lambs, each a year old and without defect, one young bull and two rams. They will be a burnt offering to the LORD, together with their grain offerings and drink offerings—a food offering, an aroma pleasing to the LORD. 19 Then sacrifice one male goat for a sin offering and two lambs, each a year old, for a fellowship offering. 20 The priest is to wave the two lambs before the LORD as a wave offering, together with the bread of the firstfruits. They are a sacred offering to the LORD for the priest. 21 On that same day you are to proclaim a sacred assembly and do no regular work. This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live.
The New International Version. (2011). (Le 23:15–21). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Tags: Le 23:15–21
Clipped: January 14, 2017
NIV: Chapter 18
12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
The New International Version. (2011). (Lk 18:12). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
will_scholten — 2017-01-21T08:43:08-05:00 — #2
So after 1 week, there are 30 views, no comments, awesome!!
So with the exception of Luke 18:12 (I will come back to) we all agree these verses are happening after Passover , and are counting the Sabbath weeks to find the 50th day!
We know the set apart ones in the scriptures had these same laws, did they ever try to change there Sabbath to Sunday (the first day of the week) because of this?
Do we? Why, if we do?
As far as Luke 18:12, there is no such command in Torah to fast twice a week!
Does anyone have any ideas what is going on?
We know it is a parable, the pharisee is boasting about not being like...., is the fasting just more boasting???
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
The New International Version. (2011). (Lk 18:9–14). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
The following is from the Jewish encyclopedia;
FASTING AND FAST-DAYS ( = "fasting"; = "affliction of soul"; later Hebrew [Ezra ix. 5] and Talmudic, ):
By: Executive Committee of the Editorial Board., Julius H. Greenstone, Emil G. Hirsch, Hartwig Hirschfeld
Table of Contents
In Biblical Times.
List of Fast-Days.
Relation to Sabbath.
Fasting is usually defined as a withholding of all natural food from the body for a determined period voluntarily appointed for moral or religious ends. This institution has found wide acceptance in all religious systems, although its forms and motives vary with different creeds and nationalities.
The origin of fasting is disputed by various critics. Some (e.g., Herbert Spencer) are of the opinion that it arose from the custom of providing refreshments for the dead; others (e.g., W. R. Smith) that it was merely a preparation for the eating of the sacrificial meal; others, again (e.g., Smend), attribute the custom to a desire on the part of the worshipers to humble themselves before their God, so as to arouse His sympathy; while still others think that "it originated in the desire of primitive man to bring on at will certain abnormal nervous conditions favorable to those dreams which are supposed to give to the soul direct access to the objective realities of the spiritual world" (Tylor, cited in "Encyc. Brit." s.v.). The Rabbis compared fasting to sacrifice, and considered the affliction of one's body as the offering up of one's blood and fat upon the altar (Ber. 17a). Examples may be quoted from the Bible to corroborate these varying opinions.
In Biblical Times.
In olden times fasting was instituted as a sign of mourning (I Sam. xxxi. 13; II Sam. i. 12), or when danger threatened (II Sam. xii. 16; comp. I Kings xxi. 27), or when the seer was preparing himself for a divine revelation (Ex. xxxiv. 28; Deut. ix. 9, 18; Dan. ix. 3; comp. B. M. 85a). That individual fasting was common among the early Jews is evident from the provision made (Num. xxx. 14) that a vow made by a woman "to afflict the soul" may under certain conditions be canceled by the husband. More frequent, however, were the occasional fasts instituted for the whole community, especially when the nation believed itself to be under divine displeasure (Judges xx, 26; I Sam. vii. 6, where it is conjoined with the pouring out of water before the Lord; Jer. xxxvi. 9; Neh. ix. 1), or when a great calamity befell the land (Joel i. 14, ii. 12), as when pestilence raged or when drought set in; and sometimes also when an important act was about to be carried out by the officials of the land (I Kings xxi. 12; comp. I Sam. xiv. 24). In Jonah iii. 6-7 it may be seen with what rigor an official fast was observed, while in Isa. lviii. 5 is given a description of a fast-day among the Jews. For the attitude of the Prophets and of the Rabbis toward fasting see Abstinence; Asceticism.
List of Fast-Days.
Of regular fixed fast-days the Jewish calendar has comparatively few. Besides the Day of Atonement, which is the only fast-day prescribed by the Mosaic law (Lev. xvi. 29; see Atonement, Day of), there were established after the Captivity four regular fast-days in commemoration of the various sad events that had befallen the nation during that period (Zech. viii. 19; comp. vii. 3-5). These were the fast of the fourth month (Tammuz), of the fifth month (Ab), of the seventh month (Tishri), and of the tenth month (Ṭebet). According to some rabbis of the Talmud, these fasts were obligatory only when the nation was under oppression, but not when there was peace for Israel (R. H. 18b). In the Book of Esther an additional fast is recorded (ix. 31; comp. iv. 3, 16), which is commonly observed, in commemoration of the fast of Esther, on the thirteenth of Adar, although some used to fast three days—the first and second Mondays and the Thursday following Purim (Soferim xvii. 4, xxi. 2).
Many other fasts, in memory of certain troubles that befell Israel, were added in the course of time, a full list of which is given at the end of Megillat Ta'anit. These were not regarded as obligatory, and they found little acceptance among the people. The list, with a few changes as given in Shulḥan 'Aruk, Oraḥ Ḥayyim, 580, 2, marked in parentheses, is as follows:
- First of Nisan: the sons of Aaron were destroyed in the Tabernacle.
- Tenth of Nisan: Miriam the prophetess died; the well that followed the Israelites in the wilderness disappeared.
- Twenty-sixth of Nisan: Joshua the son of Nun died.
- Tenth of Iyyar: Eli the high priest and his two sons died, and the Ark was captured by the Philistines.
- Twenty-ninth (twenty-eighth) of Iyyar: Samuel the prophet died.
- Twenty-third of Siwan: the Israelites ceased bringing the firstlings to Jerusalem in the days of Jeroboam.
- Twenty-fifth of Siwan: R. Simeon son of Gamaliel, R. Ishmael son of Elisha, and R. Ḥanina the superior ("segan") of the priests were executed.
- Twenty-seventh of Siwan: R. Ḥanina son of Teradion was burned while holding a scroll of the Torah.
- Seventeenth of Tammuz: the tablets were broken; the regular daily sacrifice ceased; Apostemus burned the Law, and introduced an idol into the holy place; the breaking into the city by the Romans (Ta'an. 28b).
- First of Ab: Aaron the high priest died.
- Ninth of Ab: it was decreed that Jews who went out of Egypt should not enter Palestine; the Temple was destroyed for the first and the second time; Bether was conquered, and Jerusalem plowed over with a plowshare (ib. 29a).
- Eighteenth of Ab: the western light was extinguished in the time of Ahaz.
- Seventh (seventeenth) of Elul: the spies died in a pestilence.
- Third of Tishri: Gedaliah and his associates were assassinated in Mizpah (II Kings xxv. 25).
- Fifth of Tishri: twenty Israelites died, and Akiba was imprisoned and afterward executed.
- Seventh of Tishri: it was decreed that the Israelites should die by sword and by famine on account of the affair of the golden calf (see Meg. Ta'an. ad loc., ed. princeps, Mantua, 1514).
- Sixth (seventh) of Marḥeshwan: Nebuchadnezzar blinded King Zedekiah after he had slaughtered the latter's children in his presence.
- Seventh (twenty-eighth) of Kislew: Jehoiakim burned the scroll that Baruch wrote at the dictation of Jeremiah.
- Eighth of Ṭebet: the Torah was translated into Greek in the time of Ptolemy; there was darkness in the world for three days.
- Ninth of Ṭebet: incident not explained (death of Ezra, as mentioned in "Kol Bo").
- Tenth of Ṭebet: the siege of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar began (II Kings xxv. 1; Jer. lii. 4).
- Eighth (fifth) of Shebaṭ: the righteous (elders) that were in the time of Joshua died.
- Twenty-third of Shebaṭ: the Israelites gathered to war with the tribe of Benjamin (Judges xx.).
- Seventh of Adar: Moses died.
- Ninth of Adar: the controversy between the house of Shammai and that of Hillel.
The Polish Jews are accustomed to fast on the twentieth of Siwan on account of the atrocities committed on that day in 1648 by the Cossacks. Some pious Jews also fast every Monday and Thursday in commemoration of the destruction of the Temple, of the burning of the Torah, and of the desecration of God's name (comp. Luke xviii. 12). The first and second Mondays and the first Thursday of Iyyar and of Marḥeshwan, following the festivals of Passover and of Sukkot respectively, are recognized fasts in most Jewish communities, and were originally instituted to atone for the sins that might have been committed in the pursuit of pleasure during the holidays (Ḳid. 81a; Tos., s.v. "Soḳobo"; Oraḥ Ḥayyim, 492). The burial societies observe a fast-day preceding their annual feast held in the evening. In some places it is observed on the fifteenth of Kislew; in some on the seventh of Adar; while others have other days for its observance (see Burial Society). It is also customary to fast on the eve of New-Year's Day (Tan., Emor, s.v. "U-Leḳaḥtem"), while many fast during all the ten penitential days (Oraḥ Ḥayyim, 581, 2, Isserles' gloss). Some pious Jews fast every Friday, so as to partake of the Sabbath meal with a hearty appetite (ib. 249, 3). The anniversary of the death of one's father or mother ("Jahrzeit") and the day of one's marriage are also observed as fasts (Yoreh De'ah, 402, 11, Isserles' gloss; Eben ha-'Ezer, 61, 1, Isserles' gloss). The first-born fast on the eve of Passover in commemoration of the miracle which was performed in Egypt when all the Egyptian first-born were slain and those of the Israelites were saved.
Besides these fixed fast-days, the Synagogue frequently imposed a fast-day upon the community when great calamities threatened the people. This right of the Synagogue had its origin in the fasts described in the treatise Ta'anit as having been instituted in early times when rain was late in coming. If no rain fell on or before the seventeenth of Marḥeshwan, the learned and pious men of the community fasted three days—Monday, Thursday, and Monday. In the case of continued drought, three more fasts were proclaimed, and, lastly, seven fast-days on successive Mondays and Thursdays were instituted. These fasts were accompanied with many solemn ceremonies, such as the taking out of the Ark to the market-place, while the people covered themselves with sackcloth and placed ashes on their foreheads, and impressive sermons were delivered (Ta'an. 18a). Fast-days were subsequently instituted in case any misfortune befeil the people, as pestilence, famine, evil decrees by rulers, etc. (ib. 19a). Examples of the latter were the fasts instituted by the Russian rabbis during the anti-Jewish riots early in the eighth decade of the nineteenth century.
Private fasts were frequent among the Jews from earliest times (Judith viii. 6; I Macc. iii. 47; II Macc. xiii. 12). One may take it upon himself to fast on certain days, either in memory of certain events in his own life, or in expiation of his sins, or in time of trouble to arouse God's mercy (see Vows). The Rabbis, however, did not encourage such abstinence Indeed, they positively forbade it in the case of a scholar, who through his fasting would be disturbed in his study; or of a teacher, who would thereby be prevented from doing his work faithfully; or of one pursued by robbers, who might become weak (Ta'an. 11a). In no case should one boast of his fasts to others, and even though he is asked he should try to evade the question, except when he has fasted in expiation of his sins; in this case acknowledgment may lead others to expiation likewise (Oraḥ Ḥayyim, 565, 6).
The fast undertaken in consequence of an evil dream has peculiar significance in Jewish law. While in general no fast is permitted on Sabbaths or holidays, the Talmud permitted one to be undertaken even on these days, provided it be complemented later by another fast (Ber. 31b). There are, however, various opinions among the later authorities regarding such a fast. Some think that it may be observed on a Sabbath only after an evil dream has occurred three times, while others are of the opinion that it is not possible to distinguish at present between good and evil dreams, and that therefore one should not fast at all on the Sabbath. The custom is to fast if one dreams of the burning of a scroll of the Law, or the Day of Atonement during Ne'ilah service, or the beams of his house falling, or his teeth dropping out. The custom of fasting on such occasions has, however, lapsed into desuetude, and, as in the cases cited above, is discouraged by the Rabbis (Oraḥ Ḥayyim, 288).
All Jewish fasts begin at sunrise and end with the appearance of the first stars of the evening, except those of the Day of Atonement and the Ninth of Ab, which last "from even till even." There is no special ritual for the ordinary fast-days. The Law is taken out and the lesson from Exodus is read which treats of the thirteen qualities of mercy and of God's forgiveness at the supplication of the pious (Ex. xxxii. 11-14, xxxiv. 1-10). The same passages are read both at the morning and at the afternoon services, while at the latter the Hafṭarah is also read from Isa. lv. 6-lvi. 8. The Sephardim do not read the Hafṭarah on the afternoon of anyfast-day except the Ninth of Ab (see Ab, Ninth Day of). In the 'Amidah the prayer beginning with "'Anenu" is inserted, and in the morning service special seliḥot are provided for the various fasts.
The giving of charity on a fast-day, especially the distribution of food necessary for the evening meal (Sanh. 35a, and Rashi ad loc.), was much encouraged, in accordance with the rabbinic saying that "the reward of the fast-day is in the amount of charity distributed" (Ber. 6b).
Relation to Sabbath.
The only fixed fast-day that may be celebrated on a Sabbath is the Day of Atonement; all the others, if they fall on a Sabbath, are postponed until the following day. Private or public occasional fasts can not be held on any of the holidays, or on a new moon, or on any of the minor festivals (see Festivals), or during the month of Nisan, or on the week-days of the festivals. The Megillat Ta'anit enumerates many days of the year upon which no fast may be held, but the later Rabbis declare that one is not bound by these laws, and that therefore fasts may be instituted on any day except those mentioned (R. H. 19b). On a Sabbath it is forbidden to go without food until midday (Yer. Ta'an. iii. 11), except when one is accustomed to eat late in the day and would injure himself by changing his custom (Oraḥ Ḥayyim, 288, 1, 2).
Except in regard to the Day of Atonement and the Ninth of Ab, the command to fast applies only to food and drink; all other acts, such as washing the body or anointing, are permitted. It is forbidden, however, to indulge in any unnecessary pleasures on these days: one should meditate on the significance of the fast and examine his own sins (ib. 568, 12). Even those who are permitted to eat, as pregnant or nursing women, should not have regular meals, but should take only as much food as is necessary, so that all may participate in the common sorrow (ib. 554, 5).
The first nine days of Ab, and, with some, the period from the seventeenth of Tammuz to the tenth of Ab, are regarded as partial fasts, the eating of meat and the drinking of wine alone being forbidden.
See Ab, Fifteenth Day of; Atonement, Day of; Purim; Ta'anit; Tammuz, Fast of; Ṭebet, Fast of.
will_scholten — 2017-01-31T19:34:37-05:00 — #3
I'm sure some of you know where I am going with all this. I can have man mad at me or YHWH, I will choose man.
23 The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, **These are the appointed feasts of the LORD that you shall proclaim as holy convocations; they are my appointed feasts.
3 “Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation.** You shall do no work. It is a Sabbath to the LORD in all your dwelling places.
The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Le 23:1–3). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
Why do we call these Jewish feast, they are YHW'S feasts, right!
The first one mentioned is the Sabbath! What is the penalty for breaking the Sabbath?
The three biggest days in the church are never observed in the scriptures? Sunday, Christmas and Easter.
Why do we put the traditions of man over the commands of YHWH!!
I know over the years, we sugar coated these days and say all the good that comes out of them, but they all come from pagan roots. YHWH tells us He is a jealous Elohim and not to worship as the pagans do, right.
I can guarantee no one who was obedient to YHWH ever ate ham on "First Fruits" in Bible times!!
Everyone who was obedient in scripture kept Sabbath and the other feast, what happened?
12 “How you are fallen from heaven,
O Day Star, son of Dawn!
How you are cut down to the ground,
you who laid the nations low!
13 You said in your heart,
**‘I will ascend to heaven;
above the stars of God
I will set my throne on high;
I will sit on the mount of assembly
in the far reaches of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.’**
The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Is 14:12–14). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time. j
The New International Version. (2011). (Da 7:24–25). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
I can tell you this is not saying, Yahushua is going to do this, so why do we say He did it?
If we don't worship when YHWH tells us to, who are we listening to?
Even worse, who are we worshipping?
Please show me through scripture, were I am wrong!!
dave_l — 2017-01-31T20:15:42-05:00 — #4
“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, That I will make a new covenant With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand To bring them out of the land of Egypt; Which my covenant they brake, Although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, And write it in their hearts; And will be their God, And they shall be my people.” (Jeremiah 31:31–33)
“For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.” (Hebrews 8:7–13)
“And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.” (Hebrews 12:24)
We are not under the Old Covenant nor any of the related customs.
will_scholten — 2017-02-01T20:04:12-05:00 — #5
Thanks for your comment Dave!
I know we interpret these verses very different. But if YHWH is going to put the law/Torah/instructions in our hearts, they cannot be done away with!
I will add one more verse;
27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
The New International Version. (2011). (Eze 36:27). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
If we say we are in the Spirit, one of the jobs of the Spirit is to cause us to follow the decrees and laws.
Also the new covenant is not completed yet, because we still have to tell our neighbor who YHWH is!!
Then we still have Proverb 28:9;
9 **If anyone turns a deaf ear to my instruction,
even their prayers are detestable.**
The New International Version. (2011). (Pr 28:9). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
In verse 9, Instruction is Torah!!
dave_l — 2017-02-02T05:19:29-05:00 — #6
But we must follow the Two Great Commandments only, because the Ten Commandments no longer apply, other than as a commentary. If you observe them, you are in danger of falling away back into Judaism as Hebrews 6 warns. The New Covenant replaced every stitch of them. This is why Paul worked so hard to do away with the Judaizers.
If some church tried to make me keep any of the Old Covenant observances, the first thing I would do is leave and grab a ham sandwich, and I'm a vegan. Or I would work for free shoveling stone every Saturday for a month. Because it is nothing more than superstition....
will_scholten — 2017-02-02T06:41:20-05:00 — #7
14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. **16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever!**
The New International Version. (2011). (2 Pe 3:14–18). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Do you really think we can do obominations and detestable things and still be blamelss and spotless?
His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction
Peter warns us that Paul is hard to understand and his writings get twisted!
17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.
dave_l — 2017-02-02T07:10:31-05:00 — #8
You are in greater danger of sinning by keeping laws and rituals that no longer exist. They are part of the system that rejected Christ and shared in his murder. And if you keep the Sabbath or Dietary laws, you must also sacrifice bulls and goats, and this is a total rejection of Christ.
“For the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as a person who has broken all of God’s laws.” (James 2:10)
“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.” (Galatians 3:10)
“Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.” (Deuteronomy 27:26)
“For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:3–4)
will_scholten — 2017-02-03T06:14:22-05:00 — #9
So what the "chosen people had to do to be obedient, if we do them now a days, we are disobedient? I thought YHWH was the Same YTT, and the same law applied to the native born and the alien.
They rejected Yahushua because He did not keep the traditions of the elders/man.
dave_l — 2017-02-03T06:32:57-05:00 — #10
Paul warns Jewish converts about rejecting the New Covenant (Christ) by trying to keep parts of the old. If you keep any of it, you reject Christ because you must keep all of it.
No, they rejected Jesus by keeping the Old Covenant instead of the New.
Paul is saying what I already said. If you keep one point, you must keep it all including the slaughter of sacrificial animals. And you consequently reject Christ.
Some might think, "if Will S. had a Temple he'd be offering sacrifices too, because he is trying to do all the other stuff God did away with".
will_scholten — 2017-02-04T07:40:59-05:00 — #11
So does Paul practice what he preaches, or does he say one thing and do the opposite?
21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.
The New International Version. (2011). (Ac 21:21–24). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
11 You can easily verify that no more than twelve days ago I went up to Jerusalem to worship. 12 My accusers did not find me arguing with anyone at the temple, or stirring up a crowd in the synagogues or anywhere else in the city. 13 And they cannot prove to you the charges they are now making against me. 14 However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, 15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16 So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.
The New International Version. (2011). (Ac 24:11–16). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
The New International Version. (2011). (Ro 2:12–13). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
The list keeps going, but I think I made my point!
Scripture tells us we are to walk as Yahushau walked! Where did He ever tell anyone it was ok to break Torah?
When Yahushua deallt with the woman in adultry, did He tell her the days are coming when the law will be done away with, or did He tell her to go "sin no more"!
The book of Daniel tells us "sacrifices and offerings will be done away with"
and someone is going to "try to change the days and times"!
No where do I see any prophet telling us the Torah/law/instruction for living a life "set apart" is going to change.
We need to realize all this stuff happened after the scriptures were penned, which would have had to have been before 70 Ad, there is nothing recorded about when the Temple was destroyed in scripture. Read about it in Josephus, it was a big thing and would have been recorded if the scriptures were written during or after that!
We need to give the scripture the authority, it demands us to.
9 “This, then, is how you should pray:
“ ‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 **your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven**.
The New International Version. (2011). (Mt 6:8–10). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
"On earth as it is in heaven"
Do you think heaven keeps YHWH's Sabbaths and Feast days or Sunday, Christmas and Easter??
Which should we do, according to this prayer??
What was the fault of the first covenant? YHWH made a mistake with how He demands His set apart ones to live, or the sacrifices and priest hood did nothing?
Didn't Yahushua come and replace the priestly orders and become the ultimate sacrifice? Did He change the elements of "Passover " from the death and blood of animals to bread and wine, His own Body and Blood. "This do in rememberance of Me"!!
dave_l — 2017-02-04T07:55:00-05:00 — #12
Actually, you miss the point. The last generation of circumcised Jews were dying off. Paul was trying to reach them and convert them to the New Covenant. So he went among them just as you might dress the part to reach a bunch of Bikers. He became all things to all men in order to win some.
“And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.” (1 Corinthians 9:20–22)
The rest we've been over to the point of exhaustion. But; “For the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as a person who has broken all of God’s laws.” (James 2:10)
You are sinning when you keep the Sabbath because you are not keeping all of the Law. This includes sacrifices and rituals.
I am not sinning when I do not keep any Sabbath, because I am not under the Old Covenant. I'm under the new.
will_scholten — 2017-02-04T11:49:59-05:00 — #13
18 Did not your ancestors do this also, and our God brought on us all of this disaster and on this city too? Now you are adding fierce wrath on Israel by profaning the Sabbath!”
Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Ne 13:18). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
Salvation for All Who Obey
56 Thus says Yahweh:
and do righteousness,
for my salvation is close to coming,
and my justice to being revealed.
**2 Happy is the man who does this,
and the son of **humankind** who keeps hold of it,
who keeps the Sabbath ⌊so as not to profane⌋ it,
and who keeps his hand from doing any evil.”
3 And do not let the ⌊foreigner⌋ who joins himself to Yahweh say, “Surely Yahweh will separate me from his people.”
And do not let the eunuch say, “Look! I am a dry tree!”
4 For thus says Yahweh, **“To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,
and choose that in which I delight,
and who keep hold of my covenant.
5 And I will give them a monument and a name in my house and within my walls,
better than sons and daughters;
I will give him an everlasting name
that shall not be cut off.**
6 And the ⌊foreigners⌋ who join themselves to Yahweh to serve him
and to love the name of Yahweh, to become his servants,
every one who keeps the Sabbath, ⌊so as not to profane⌋ it,
and those who keep hold of my covenant,
7 I will bring them to ⌊my holy mountain⌋;
I will make them merry in my house of prayer.
their burnt offerings and their sacrifices ⌊will be accepted⌋ on my altar,
for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples,”
8 ⌊declares⌋ the Lord Yahweh, who gathers the scattered ones of Israel (still I will gather to him, to his gathered ones).**
Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Is 56:1–8). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
**13 If you hold your foot back from the Sabbath,
from doing your affairs on ⌊my holy day⌋,
if you call the Sabbath a pleasure,
the holy day of Yahweh honorable,
if you honor him ⌊more than⌋ doing your ways,
than finding your affairs and speaking a word,
14 then you shall take your pleasure in Yahweh,
and I will make you ride upon the heights of the earth,
and I will feed you the heritage of Jacob your ancestor,**
for the mouth of Yahweh has spoken.”
Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Is 58:13–14). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
23 And this shall happen: From ⌊new moon to new moon⌋ and from ⌊Sabbath to Sabbath⌋ all flesh shall come to bow in worship before me,” says Yahweh.
Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Is 66:23). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
20 And immediately he called them, and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired men and* went away after him. 21 And they went into Capernaum and immediately on the Sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue.
Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Mk 1:20–21). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
We are to teach as Yahushua taught, He taught the keeping of the Sabbath!!
2 And when* the Sabbath came, he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him* were amazed, saying, “Where did this man get these things? And what is this wisdom that has been granted to this man, and the miracles such as these performed through his hands?
Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Mk 6:2). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
10 Now he was t**eaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath.** 11
Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Lk 13:10–11). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
In Acts, they keep Sabbath, were they sinning??
12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mountain that is called Olive Grove which is near Jerusalem, ⌊a Sabbath day’s journey away⌋
Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Ac 1:12). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
14 And they went on from Perga and* arrived at Pisidian Antioch. And they entered into the synagogue on the day of the Sabbath and* sat down. 15 So after the reading from the law and the prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent word* to them, saying, “Men and brothers, if there is any message of exhortation by you for the people, say it.”*
Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Ac 13:14–15). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
27 For those who live in Jerusalem and their rulers, because they* did not recognize this one, and the voices of the prophets that are read on every Sabbath, fulfilled them* by* condemning him.*
Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Ac 13:27). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
42 And as* they were going out, they began urging* that these things be spoken about to them on the next Sabbath. 43 And after* the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and the devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who were speaking to them and* were persuading them to continue in the grace of God. 44 And on the coming Sabbath, nearly the whole city came together to hear the word of the Lord.
Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Ac 13:42–44). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
21 For Moses has those who proclaim him in every city from ancient generations, because he* is read aloud in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”
Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Ac 15:21). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
13 And on the day of the Sabbath, we went outside the city gate beside the river, where we thought there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and* spoke to the women assembled there.
Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Ac 16:13). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
2 ⌊And as was his custom⌋, Paul went in to them and on three Sabbath days he discussed with them from the scriptures, 3 explaining and demonstrating that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus whom I am proclaiming to you is the Christ
Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Ac 17:2–3). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
4 And he argued in the synagogue every Sabbath, attempting to persuade* both Jews and Greeks.
Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Ac 18:4). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
Do Not Be Judged by Human Religious Rules
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you with reference to eating or drinking or participation in a feast or a new moon or a Sabbath, 17 which are a shadow of what is to come, but the reality is Christ
Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Col 2:16–17). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
So Dave, when did keeping Sabbath become a sin?
It happened after the time that the scriptures were written, that would make them a tradition of man!!
dave_l — 2017-02-04T12:06:22-05:00 — #14
Keeping the Sabbath is not sin if you keep all of the Law. And you are not doing this. So you are cheating and only keeping part of it = sin. Paul and James say if you keep any of it you must keep it all. I am not sinning however because I'm not keeping any of it. I'm in the New Covenant and it no longer applies.
“For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.” (James 2:10)
“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.” (Galatians 3:10)
“For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.” (Galatians 5:3)
“Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:19)
will_scholten — 2017-02-04T13:23:27-05:00 — #15
3 1 See what love the Father has lavished on us in letting us be called God’s children! For that is what we are. The reason the world does not know us is that it has not known him. 2 Dear friends, we are God’s children now; and it has not yet been made clear what we will become. We do know that when he appears, we will be like him; because we will see him as he really is.
**3 And everyone who has this hope in him continues purifying himself, since God is pure. 4 Everyone who keeps sinning is violating Torah—indeed, sin is violation of Torah. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and that there is no sin in him. 6 So no one who remains united with him continues sinning; everyone who does continue sinning has neither seen him nor known him.
7 Children, don’t let anyone deceive you—it is the person that keeps on doing what is right who is righteous, just as God is righteous. 8 The person who keeps on sinning is from the Adversary, because from the very beginning the Adversary has kept on sinning.**
It was for this very reason that the Son of God appeared, to destroy these doings of the Adversary. 9 No one who has God as his Father keeps on sinning, because the seed planted by God remains in him. That is, he cannot continue sinning, because he has God as his Father. 10 Here is how one can distinguish clearly between God’s children and those of the Adversary: everyone who does not continue doing what is right is not from God.
Stern, D. H. (1998). Complete Jewish Bible: an English version of the Tanakh (Old Testament) and B’rit Hadashah (New Testament) (1st ed., 1 Jn 3). Clarksville, MD: Jewish New Testament Publications.
And everyone who has this hope in him continues purifying himself, since God is pure. 4 Everyone who keeps sinning is violating Torah—indeed, sin is violation of Torah.
How do you try to purify youself, sin is violation of the Torah!!!
dave_l — 2017-02-04T13:26:09-05:00 — #16
Yes, and if you do not keep it all perfectly, not just some of it, you are living in sin and rejecting most of the Law.
will_scholten — 2017-02-04T13:38:11-05:00 — #17
Is that where grace comes in, for our short falls, or since no man has ever kept it perfectly, why try.
Just say it is done away with!
dave_l — 2017-02-04T13:45:27-05:00 — #18
You can't have it both ways. Paul and James say you need to keep all the Old Covenant if you keep any of it. And Grace will not do you any good here. Paul says you fall from grace if you keep any of the Law. “For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:3–4)
will_scholten — 2017-02-04T15:14:41-05:00 — #19
Don't forget, as I brought up in another topic, Greek 1722 translated by, can also mean against or without, which would sound more correct to you, here?
dave_l — 2017-02-04T15:24:26-05:00 — #20
Personally, I wouldn't want to reverse engineer scripture to make it fit my plan. Paul's and James's warnings are clear enough in the best translations.
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