bkmitchell — 2017-09-09T19:19:39-04:00 — #1
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-09-10T02:50:43-04:00 — #2
As with any expression that uses a genitive construction, the immediate context is determining which type of genitive (objective/subjective/ or other) is meant.
This expression πíστiς Xρiστoȗ (pistis christou) is no exception to this rule of language ... one would at first need to evaluate the immediate context of each passage where it is used to determine its respective meaning.
bkmitchell — 2017-09-10T03:20:04-04:00 — #3
Execelent Wolfgang Schneider,
You provided an astute and wise answer.
I have now tweaked the OP a bit and added διὰ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ (Romans 3:22) as a preliminary example.
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-09-10T03:46:04-04:00 — #4
Rom 3,21-22 (AV)
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
From carefully observing the part of the whole statement in Rom 3:21-22, I read in v. 22 that main thought as follows: "the righteousness of God is by faith [believing] ... unto all and upon all them that believe ..." Thus, the action of believing here is on the part of "all them". WHAT the "all them" are required to believe in order to receive the righteousness of God is then detailed in the genitive clause "faith [believing] of Jesus Christ". Since the main thought is not about how or what Jesus Christ believed, but about what all them who believe are to believe, the genitive clause in this case is an objective genitive, in particular it is a genitive expression a relation.
What the "all them" need to believe is "concerning, regarding the accomplished work of Messiah Jesus", as already the law and the prophets had testified concerning the Messiah's accomplished work providing or making possible the righteousness of God to be granted or imputed to whose who would trust / put their confidence in / believe in the Messiah.
The statement is not "about anyone just believing anything", it specifies that the righteousness of God is available to all who believe in the accomplished work of Christ Jesus; righteousness of God is by "faith/believing IN Jesus Christ (that is, in his accomplished work as Messiah, as testified by the law and the prophets)" unto all them who so believe !
dave_l — 2017-09-10T04:46:18-04:00 — #5
“Let us look to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.” (Hebrews 12:2)
So I would side with the NET and KJV in this regard. But I understand it more like Faith of Christ = faith from Christ.
Another point is that if faith is of human origin, and if whatever is not of faith is sin, then ISIS is not sinning when they kill innocent people.
Faith produces faithfulness, but often people confuse one with the other.
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-09-10T06:39:51-04:00 — #6
Again, context will provide the understanding. The phrase "let us look to Jesus" indicates clearly that Jesus is the object of our looking, he is the one to whom we are to look for something, in other words, he is here pointed to as our example. Example of what? Example in regards to believe God and do God's will in this earthly race and fight ....
Jesus is the PERFECT example of how to do it and how to trust/faith/believing God ...this "perfect example" is expressed by calling him "the author and finisher" of believing. Jesus perfectly believed/trusted God! Then it is further explained how Jesus achieved it => "by setting his eyes on the future glory and joy (the "being seated at the right hand of God") that was promised by God beyond the suffering (the "cross and shame"). Jesus believed God always, did not waver and doubt resulting in unbelief but always did what God wanted him to do.
This is NOT speaking about "faith/believing" being some kind of spiritual, mystical force or ability which originates from Jesus and is given to Christians, etc .... The passage encourages Christians to trust and believe God and to do His will in the face of temptations and hardships, by placing the perfect example of Jesus, who always believed and trusted God even in worst situations (he endured the cross and shame).
"Faith"/"believing" produces indeed "faithfulness" ... because as we believe God and walk by the spirit, we gain trust and temptations which may have been stumbling blocks at one time are overcome the next time and we thus remain faithful and show forth faithfulness as a fruit of walking by the spirit (cp. Gal 5:16,22-23)
bkmitchell — 2017-09-10T06:41:50-04:00 — #7
I am not sure that the concept of the "faithfulness of Christ" implies what Christ believed. In general, the faithfulness of Christ at least as I have heard the concept spoken of by people who accept that line of thought means that Christ was obedient/loyal or that he perfectly fulfilled God's law.
For example, when a wife says that she has a faithful husband she isn't referring to her husband's faith in her, but rather that her husband is loyal to her and to the wedding contract.
dave_l — 2017-09-10T06:56:15-04:00 — #8
= let's look to the source of our faith, who is Jesus the author.
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-09-10T07:02:52-04:00 — #9
Is being obedient, loyal and fulfilling / doing God's law not an expression of believing God's law?? Obedience to God's commands is an expression of believing it (acknowledging it as true and acting upon it), yes?
The faithfulness of the husband expresses the continued faith/believing/remaining true of the husband to his words he promised his wife. In a sense, the wedding vows/contract are being believed, are considered to be true. and this believing/faith in each others' words then is described as "being faithful" or "faithfulness".
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-09-10T07:03:58-04:00 — #10
How then is Jesus "the source of our faith" ?
dave_l — 2017-09-10T07:08:15-04:00 — #11
Well put! Being God, did Jesus have faith in himself? Faith in what he saw and experienced first hand? We need faith because we are not God. And God gives us faith as evidence in things pertaining to him.
Jesus was the express image of God's essence (hypostasis) just as faith is the substance (hypostasis) of things not seen.
“Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his [God's] person (hypostasis) .....” (Hebrews 1:3)
“Now faith is the substance [hypostasis] of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” (Hebrews 11:1)
bkmitchell — 2017-09-10T09:02:17-04:00 — #12
My point was only that faithfulness in modern English tends to mean being loyal and thus that the expression "faithfulness of Christ" is often emphasizing the loyalty of Christ, not the belief that Christ had in the existence, God. Why? In general, the people arguing for this point of view are Trinitarians and for them, Christ knows that God exists because he is God or was with God in beginning as the son God.
1**faith•ful** \ˈfāth-fəl\ adjective
1 obsolete: full of faith
2: steadfast in affection or allegiance: LOYAL
3: firm in adherence to promises or in observance of duty: CONSCIENTIOUS
4: given with strong assurance: BINDING 〈a faithful promise〉
5: true to the facts, to a standard, or to an original 〈a faithful copy〉—faith•ful•ly -fə-lē\ adverb—faith•ful•ness noun
synonym FAITHFUL, LOYAL, CONSTANT, STAUNCH, STEADFAST, RESOLUTE mean firm in adherence to whatever one owes allegiance. FAITHFUL implies unswerving adherence to a person or thing or to the oath or promise by which a tie was contracted 〈faithful to her promise〉. LOYAL implies a firm resistance to any temptation to desert or betray 〈remained loyal to the czar〉. CONSTANT stresses continuing firmness of emotional attachment without necessarily implying strict obedience to promises or vows 〈constant friends〉. STAUNCH suggests fortitude and resolution in adherence and imperviousness to influences that would weaken it 〈a staunch defender of free speech〉. STEADFAST implies a steady and unwavering course in love, allegiance, or conviction 〈steadfast in their support〉. RESOLUTE implies firm determination to adhere to a cause or purpose 〈a resolute ally〉.
Merriam-Webster, Inc. Merriam-Webster’s collegiate dictionary. 2003 : n. pag. Print.
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-09-10T10:38:04-04:00 — #13
you are pointing out how the doctrine of the Trinity causes erroneous understanding which goes against the text of Scripture ... and not only in the case of this topic
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-09-10T10:40:59-04:00 — #14
well ... (or better, not so well) ... once again, one can see how it actually is the false Trinity doctrine which causes erroneous false interpretations of scripture.
dave_l — 2017-09-10T13:09:26-04:00 — #15
Your antitrinitarian beliefs rob you of a lot of understanding of the scriptures.
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-09-10T14:07:58-04:00 — #16
I was expounding details from the very text of the Scripture passages involved in this exchange and showed how one arrives at a proper understanding of a passage ...
YOU, on the other hand, took the Trinity dogma - not even found in the Bible - as basis for your understanding and interpretation without paying close attention to what the text itself actually says.
Could it be that it actually is a Trinitarian belief which robs adherents of a lot of understanding of the Scriptures?
dave_l — 2017-09-10T14:28:25-04:00 — #17
The Trinity doctrine is a type of spiritual litmus test. It tells me I cannot rely on any who oppose it. As far as knowing scriptural truth in any area needing interpretation. I think most Trinitarians see it this way.
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-09-10T15:09:04-04:00 — #18
I am sure that most likely the vast majority if not all Trinitarians see it that way ... they hardly could do differently because such more independent and objective study of the text of Scripture would cause them to realize the real problem .... and bring them to a point of having to make a free will choice what to believe: Man's dogma or Scripture truth.
dave_l — 2017-09-10T18:37:23-04:00 — #19
This is the point. If you cannot see the Trinity Doctrine in scripture, I cannot trust anything you say as far as bible interpretation goes. My alarm bells start ringing when people who cannot grasp key doctrines begin offering their views.
gao_lu — 2017-09-11T00:11:06-04:00 — #20
I do see Trinity Doctrine in Scripture. I still fully grasp that your doctrine is false and reject it and I bet you got a swift comeback for that.
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