dave_l — 2017-09-01T06:51:57-04:00 — #1
Sin does not exist apart from the person who sins. If so, how does God punish the effect (sin) apart from punishing the cause (the sinner)? So if God hates sin, he must first hate the sinner.
But this is where God's love reaches its fullest expression. It is one thing to die for someone you love. But to die for someone you hate? Because God is love, He set his love on sinners, absorbing his own wrath for their sins in Jesus on the cross. Giving all whom he appointed to salvation a new birth he delights in. A faithful holy nature He loves subjectively without compromising his righteousness.
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-01T09:08:46-04:00 — #2
This is contrary to scripture. At worse its Heresy. At Best its private interpretation.
Where is the Scripture which led you to believe God hates Man.
dave_l — 2017-09-01T09:54:13-04:00 — #3
Does God hate anyone? The answer is yes.
Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity."
Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."
Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."
Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."
Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels."
There are many more references if you look into it.
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-01T10:23:02-04:00 — #4
You reference a time, when the Sin could not be separated from the Sinner. We would agree here, If you cannot separate Sin from Sinner it is all the same and this is why God did much destroying. What about now? what about now through Jesus Christ.
Do you think it was ever the creature he hated or the nature of the creature?
dave_l — 2017-09-01T10:26:35-04:00 — #5
How do you separate a person from their nature?
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-01T10:44:48-04:00 — #6
dave_l — 2017-09-01T10:52:31-04:00 — #7
But God is Holy and cannot love us unless he first gives us a holy nature in the New Birth. God's righteousness hates sinners, even before they are born.
“For before the children had been born, having done neither evil nor good, so that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but through Him who calls, it was said to her, “The elder shall serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”” (Romans 9:11–13)
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-01T11:00:59-04:00 — #8
I don't know, Jesus said while we were yet sinners he died for us. He loved us even while we were wicked.
dave_l — 2017-09-01T11:03:51-04:00 — #9
Jesus died for those he hated because he is love, not because he loved the wickedness in them.
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-01T11:10:40-04:00 — #10
We agree he didn't love the wickedness in them, but he didn't hate them.
dave_l — 2017-09-01T11:11:30-04:00 — #11
But they are the source of their wickedness. They are wicked to the bone.
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-01T11:17:00-04:00 — #12
Interesting Discourse. I don't know if I think Man is the source of their wickedness, or if they allowed darkness in them through disobedience which then became an innate part of their makeup. Any scriptures on the topic you could share?
dave_l — 2017-09-01T11:33:24-04:00 — #13
If you study Romans chapter 5, it basically says God placed Adam on trial of obedience as the representative of his children. When he sinned, God considered all of his children just as sinful as Adam. So death not only claimed Adam, it came over all. “For just as through one man’s disobedience the many were made [constituted] sinners, so by the obedience of One the many will be made [constituted] righteous.” (Romans 5:19)
Then God placed Jesus the second Adam on trial of obedience as the representative of all his (spiritual) children fallen in Adam. When Jesus finished living a sinless life on the cross, and having paid for their sins, God considered all of his children just as perfect as Jesus.
So God views all as sinners in Adam. And views all of Jesus' spiritual children as Justified from their sins in Christ. Even though we had nothing to do with Adam's sin nor Christ's righteousness.
This is how Christians can approach God being clothed in Jesus' righteousness instead of their own. And be atoned for by his blood instead of by their own works.
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-01T11:52:26-04:00 — #14
I'll study tonigh, and offer some discourse points. If I get to it before Tonight I'll post.
fred_benjamin — 2017-09-01T13:26:31-04:00 — #15
I am in general agreement with your (Dave's) statements. I would not say God died for those He hated though. I put forth the following argument: God is love (1 John 4:8). It is not simply that God “loves,” but that He is Love itself. Love is not merely one of His attributes, but His very nature. Also, with God Himself there is “no variableness, neither shadow of turning” (James 1:17) so it is not possible for Him to change. Thus,God could not hate anyone of the elect at one time and then "change His mind" and start loving them. God's love for the elect is eternal, the "Book of Life" is eternal. (Revelation 17:8; Luke 10:20).
The contrary also being true IMO ... those of the unelect He has hated, hates and always will hate.
(caveat: I am assuming Dave's phrase "Jesus died for those he hated" means the elect as opposed to every person to ever life or will live ... though that wouldn't change the underlying point I am making)
dave_l — 2017-09-01T13:34:05-04:00 — #16
There are too many scriptures that say God hates sinners for me to suppose he loved any he died for. His glory is far greater if he died for those he hated instead of dying for those he loved. The worst sinners die for those they love every day. I can post many scriptures if you are interested. Or you can look further into it.
God is holy, and before he can love us subjectively, he must make us holy. This he did by imputing our sins to Christ and Christ's righteousness to us who believe. He made us into people he can love by giving us a new nature in the new birth.
God IS love and this is why he offered himself for the sins of those he hated because of their iniquity.