bkmitchell — 2017-10-04T08:39:37-04:00 — #1
Disclaimer the posting of this video does not necessarily represent an automatic endorsement of content, ideas, or theories rather this video is posted for the sake of conversation:
dave_l — 2017-10-04T11:27:17-04:00 — #2
God uses means (secondary causes) to condition our will according to his plan for us. The craftsman prays for God to bless his work and God provides the best tools and the wisdom to use them. But in reality, God moved the craftsman to pray and obtain the best tools to align him with the eternal decree.
fred — 2017-10-04T21:53:13-04:00 — #3
I agree with Keller. God plans everything, everything He plans comes about, yet man is responsible for what man does. Acts 2:23; Genesis 50:20; Proverbs 16:4; Acts 4:27-28
God defines what is good, not man.
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-10-05T02:26:59-04:00 — #4
Being moved, inspired, given an idea and motivated by someone else do NOT change anything regarding the truth that the craftsman is FREE to decide to either accept such motivation and being moved or to reject it.
dave_l — 2017-10-05T06:45:55-04:00 — #5
The craftsman is not free. If you have free will, go bench press 600 lbs. God motivates the craftsman according to the nature he gave him. And according to the wisdom, knowledge and other stimuli he sends. The craftsman sees an answer to his prayers, but God put the prayer on his heart to align the craftsman with his eternal decree.
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-10-05T14:07:13-04:00 — #6
Of course, the craftsman is free to chose to either do or reject possible options.
This is non-sense and shows a total ignorance of what "free will choice" is about.
Things that are not available are not availabe, things that are not possible are not possible .. they are OUTSIDE the frame of any willful choice. Free will has NOTHING to do with "by will power changing an impossibility, etc.
And even with such motivation, the craftsman is able to chose between acting in accordance with his nature or against his nature ! Nature does NOT eliminate the choice ... cp. Rom 1, which does state that man by certain acts they do are actually acting against and contrary to human nature.
And with all of that, the craftsman does NOT HAVE TO DO one particular thing ... he is able to chose to act against / reject these stimuli.
The craftsman could have decided NOT to pray, to disregard a possible answer to a prayer ... even after God put the prayer on his heart ... the craftsman is free to either obey what God is working in his heart or else disobey and reject what God is working in his heart.
What you suggest seems to be that the craftsman is unable to chose between obedience and disobedience, but always "has to obey the nature he may have " ... what you suggest is what the Bible mentions as "possessed by evil spirits" ... such "possession" of the mental faculties causing the afflicted and slain person to be UNABLE to act on their own any longer and being nothing but a "puppet" played and moved by the evil spirit as the person is used - with their will/mind being put out of commission and unable to think, decide or chose anything.
The true God does NOT possess / control any person in such "devil possession" manner .... only evil spirits work that way.
dave_l — 2017-10-05T14:21:36-04:00 — #7
No, he is not free from the reasons he makes his decisions.
It shows the limits of free will which means the will is not free. You can will to discern spiritual truth as much as you can will to bench press 600 lbs.
Can a cat will to become a dog? Then you can will to become a Christian. The truth is you can only will to act like a Christian unless God gives you a Christian nature. Then you will be a Christian naturally.
But he is not free to reject the reason he based his choice on.
No, God works in people to will and do of his good pleasure.
“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13)
“Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?” (Romans 9:19)
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-10-06T03:19:35-04:00 — #8
Well, of course any decision "is not free" of the reasons for a decision BUT that has absolutely NOTHING to do with "free choice" or "free will decisions" ! It is axiomatic that a decision requires something (a reason) on which the decision is based ... BUT that does NOT limit or take away the freedom of a person to chose.
Simple proof ... different people are confronted with the same situations and reasons available and they make different decisions, thus the reasons given do NOT take away their free will choice. It is not that something or the reason which actually forces or makes the decision ... the decision is made in the person who evaluates the something or reasons, and the person then makes the decision
Now, of course if I am interested in getting tomatoes, I will not find them growing on an apple tree ... BUT I am free to decide to go to a tomato plant or to an apple tree to look for tomatoes!! In one case, I would be making a good decision which would get me tomatoes, in the other case I would be making a bad decision that would not get me tomatoes. Nevertheless, in either case I am still free to decide either way, and I am making the decision, it is NOT the tomato plant nor the apple tree which make the decision ...
God's working in the lives of people does NOT automatically mean that these people are forced to do His will and cannot resist His will.
Example: God was working in the apostle Paul and warning him NOT to go to Jerusalem (cp. Acts 20ff), yet Paul disregarded God's warning and went anyways and suffered severe consequences.
dave_l — 2017-10-06T07:05:24-04:00 — #9
God controls your nature and the reasons you make decisions.
People have different natures according to God's plan. And they react to the reasons you react to differently. Born again people react totally different from the regenerated under the same circumstances.
But not free from the reasons God sent that determined your choice.
God forces no one. He controls them by their nature and the reasons he sends that determine their "free choices".
tyrone_howard — 2017-10-06T09:25:32-04:00 — #10
I was wondering when someone would respond to that nonsense about free will meaning one could bench press 600lbs. Great Answer.
I believe, Furthermore, any human, can bench press 600lbs. If they use their free will to work towards it: God already stated Man would be able to do anything his heart imagined.
dave_l — 2017-10-06T10:16:37-04:00 — #11
How about 1200 lbs? “And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” (Genesis 6:5)
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-10-06T10:24:09-04:00 — #12
Yet two born again people with the same nature make two different decisions ... at the entrance to the market, one goes left to pick up tomatoes first and then the apples, the other does exactly the opposite. same nature does NOT mean "controlled by that nature"
You contradict yourself within this one sentence ... because "He controls them by their nature and the reasons he sends ..." = "God forces", since the point is that they have no choice and "must do" what they are forced by means of the control mentioned. Thus, you say in essence "God forces" but "God does not force" ... a self-contradiction.
gao_lu — 2017-10-06T10:27:50-04:00 — #13
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. Give any amount. Nothing is too difficult for God if God wants it done. I think at this point you can see the clear relevance of the purely rediculous question: "Can God make a rock so big He can't pick it up?" Indeed, such questions are foolish because they don't take into account the attributes of God. God can do anything, but God, being good, will choose to do the good thing.
God is a real being. Humans are real beings. All this isn't just some grand imagination or some exercise dominated by the laws of physics which even God must obey. My God is sovereign! My God is real! My God reins! My God makes real people with real minds and hearts who really have real faith and real love and real obedience. I like theology that snaps into place with reality.
tyrone_howard — 2017-10-06T10:46:21-04:00 — #14
Samson lifted more then 1200lbs!
dave_l — 2017-10-06T10:59:48-04:00 — #15
But they both have their unique personality traits. And their conditioning is also unique and that will lead to unique choices.
The best you can do is say when all things are equal, they can flip a coin. But God determines the way they call it, and how the coin lands.
“The lot is cast into the lap, but the whole outcome is of the LORD.” (Proverbs 16:33)
Did God force you to respond to my post? No. You responded because of your hereditary nature and your conditioning along with learning. But God determines all of this.
dave_l — 2017-10-06T11:09:09-04:00 — #16
How about 2400 Lbs? What I'm saying is that you cannot will anything above your capacity. And sinful people cannot will their own salvation. Because they hate God by nature and cannot discern spiritual truth.
dave_l — 2017-10-06T11:12:58-04:00 — #17
So you admit you cannot will things you are incapable of? Sinners cannot will to understand spiritual truth anymore than you can lift 1200 lbs unaided
tyrone_howard — 2017-10-06T11:13:47-04:00 — #18
And I'm saying as I've always said, in almost every post you make: You are wrong.
If you haven't noticed I've tried to avoid having a discourse with you, as I believe you are just inherently, according to your nature, and no choice of your own, because God makes you, like a robot with no intelligence, inable to have a discourse. Others may choose to continue to go back and forth with you, that's God making them do that, However God is making me not do it, because He no longer wants to argue with himself, he realizes how narrow minded he is manifested in you. Furthermore since, he is making people go to hell, he has deemed discourse in general with anyone unimportant because he already knows all although he makes himself not know anything so he can argue with himself.
Ok, so all joking aside, sine you can't see the how preposterous the above statement is, I'd rather spend my time discoursing other topics with those who can think for themselves.
dave_l — 2017-10-06T11:21:52-04:00 — #19
Have you considered that if I'm right, you and several others hate the God of the bible. And have made idols to your own liking giving them his name? They did this all the time throughout Israel's history. And when Jesus stood in front of them, they murdered him because he did not fit the description of the idol they worshipped in his name. Are you doing the same?
tyrone_howard — 2017-10-06T11:36:50-04:00 — #20
I have considered it, for 6 months now. I am more then convinced, now then ever, you are completely out of line with Scripture.That you've made idols of Creeds, dogmas, and doctrines forsaking the True and Living Christ. Alienated yourself from the Body of Christ by your own admission, and have esteemed yourself higher then all, even to God. These are traits of Lucifer, who is a believer in Jesus also as man kinds savior. So no more then, do I speak often to Satan unless I'm telling him get thee behind me, will I to you. Its not the difference of opinion either its the heretical statements you make towards believers condemning them, the lack of love joy peace and truth in your statements, the misuse of Text consistently similar to How Lucifer in the Wilderness and the Garden, the alienating yourself from a body of believers IRL or online, the refusal to accept correction from multiple workers in Christ, from multiple operations of ministries, evangelist, pastors and teachers, some of whom Travel the world with the Gospel, and your repeated accusations and tearing down of the body of Christ to fit your world, leaving you alone as the sole heir to salvation.
So Yes, I've considered, rebuked, charged you with correction. In private conversations and amongst the conversation of the body of believers. You refuse correction, therefore scripture says you are as a heathen if you act in such a manner. I believe you are hurt, confused, and lacking trust in God, like a child acting out is not evil but crying for attention;
While Others can continue to outreach towards you, I've made my peace with my reasons why I wont (Mainly because possibly my age, or other reasons you Cannot Hear me) I also think because you don't attend church by your own admission, and have no Pastor you don't know how to take rebuke or correction. Either Way. I still Love you, and hope Christ reveals himself in you, whether here or in the word or by other means, but like the Blind Man on the Road to Jericho, you have to desire to see, and you do not. I'll pray for you.
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