bkmitchell — 2016-05-17T19:11:59-04:00 — #1
dave_l — 2016-05-18T19:46:35-04:00 — #2
Thanks for this excellent post. One thing that stands out in the debate is the charge of God replacing Israel with the Church.
The truth of the matter is; the "Congregation of the Lord" is just another way of saying the "Church of the Lord". Because the word Church means Congregation. So the Old Testament refers to Israel as the Congregation (Church) of the Lord some 300 times.
God removed the unbelievers from Israel at the cross. Jesus inaugurated the New Covenant, abolishing Circumcision of the flesh and the Ten Commandments (Old Covenant). He then began grafting believing gentiles into Israel especially with Cornelius' conversion.
As always, believing Israel had the Law written in their hearts, also called circumcision of the heart. We have the same Law written in our hearts and do by nature the things contained in the Law.
So God did not replace Israel with the Church, the Church is the Congregation of the Lord, or Israel under the New Covenant. More precisely called the Israel of God.
“And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.” (Galatians 6:16)
bkmitchell — 2017-08-14T07:51:27-04:00 — #3
another interesting debate on the subject:
Dr. Brown Debates Dr. Gary DeMar on Israel and the Church
dave_l — 2017-08-14T08:03:38-04:00 — #4
I do not trust either of these as being able to handle the topic. Simply stated. the Church predates Israel and became known as Israel, and continues today as Israel. Only the unbelievers who once protected the Church no longer exist as Israel. The Church as Israel remains.
bkmitchell — 2017-08-14T08:09:04-04:00 — #5
If the above statement is true I would assume that I could find evidence of the Church predating Israel in the Hebrew Bible? Yet, this does not appear to be the case.
dave_l — 2017-08-14T08:12:59-04:00 — #6
"Congregation of the Lord" comes to mind. Also any listed in Hebrews 11 are the church. A Church existed anytime Job and his friends worshipped together.
bkmitchell — 2017-08-14T10:01:27-04:00 — #7
I suppose then that the word "Church" needed to be better defined.
If Church means the body of Christ or a group of Christians believing in Jesus the Christ then "Church" did not exist till the NT times.
If on the other hand, one is using "Church" to mean the "Congregation of the YHWH/Adonai" or any group of people who served YHWH then Church existed long before. However, neither the Hebrew Bible nor its English translations (at least that I am aware of) use the word "Church". This word seems to be reserved for the English translation of the NT.
dave_l — 2017-08-14T10:17:27-04:00 — #8
I think the confusion comes from thinking Jesus and YHWH are not the same. Jesus always had a spiritual body of believers that he dwelt in, through the circumcised heart. And a physical body he dwelt among through the circumcised flesh. These served the spiritual seed until no longer needed. In this sense, the Church always existed, but the institutional church began with Abraham's household. And carried over through Moses until the crucifixion.
But God dissolved the institutional church retaining the spiritual church. They were always Israel being connected to Jesus, since Jesus himself is Israel.
will_scholten — 2017-08-14T20:43:13-04:00 — #9
I only watched the opening statements, I think you already know I agree with Calvin with his scripture references.
Stephen, I think is one who will try to twist the scriptures;
1) the 2 become 1 saying Jew and church! not in the scriptures, however the 2 houses of Israel becoming 1 is ALL through the scriptures
2) Romans 9:8 way off the charts, in multiple ways
8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”
The New International Version. (2011). (Ro 9:8–9). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
If by physical decent, that would have to include Ishmael, right!
9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.
Futher more, lets goo back to the beginning of the chapter!!
9 I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit—2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised!
The New International Version. (2011). (Ro 9:1–5). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Verse 4 is ISRAEL , theirs is the ADOPTION TO SONSHIP, IT DOES NOT SAY ANYONE ELSE!!!!!
He talked about foreigners and strangers, where did you hear that before? Maybe when YHWH scattered the 10 northern tribe to the nations where scripture tells us the will be foreigners and strangers among the nations!