News & Current Events
gao_lu — 2017-05-07T03:23:57-04:00 — #1
Honor all men; love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.
1 Peter 2:17
In what ways can Christians best carry out God's expectation for us with regard to 1 Pet 2:17?
dave_l — 2017-05-07T06:32:01-04:00 — #2
As I understand scripture, God places every ruler in office. No matter how wicked or Just. So to complain about Nero, Hitler, Obama, Putin, Bush, or Trump is to disapprove of God and his providence. So I believe the best we can do is pray for all world leaders. Not just our own.
gao_lu — 2017-05-07T17:45:21-04:00 — #3
Certainly. What are some ways Christians can best carry out God's expectation for us to do so with regard to 1 Pet 2:17?
alex_vaughn — 2017-05-07T21:33:13-04:00 — #4
Obey the laws of the country where you live (if they're not in conflict with God's Kingdom). Also, don't commit libel/make baseless accusations against leaders.
If Christians shouldn't speak against political leaders, then we shouldn't have republics. These require criticism for the representatives to remain accountable to those whom they represent.
bill_coley — 2017-05-07T22:02:32-04:00 — #5
Absent a willingness to speak out against leaders and the policies they implemented, would there have been a Declaration of Independence in the U.S.? A Revolutionary War? Would we still be a set of subservient colonies?
Sometimes, there's not much about the king to honor and the only right thing to do is to object and resist. In my view, such is certainly the case when it comes to America's (wanna-be) "king," Donald Trump. As a result, I honor the views of those who disagree with me on this much more than I honor Mr. Trump or his presidency.
gao_lu — 2017-05-08T00:26:02-04:00 — #6
Thanks Alex. Those make sense. Anything else?
Here is the full passage:
Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king. (1 Peter 2:13-17)
–Obey the king (Romans 13; I Peter 2:13).
–Honor the king (I Peter 2:17).
–Pray for the king (I Timothy 2:1-2).
gao_lu — 2017-05-08T00:48:09-04:00 — #7
I understand this is difficult, that is why Jesus taught on the matter, yet He was very clear. Given the particlar challenge for you, what words or actions do you perform that honor our President Trump? What example and teaching do you offer your church?
alex_vaughn — 2017-05-08T01:40:15-04:00 — #8
What does "king" mean in the US context? What does honor entail? If the US President and political parties are identified with Christianity, what effect does that have on the spread of the Kingdom of God?
gao_lu — 2017-05-08T01:43:43-04:00 — #9
Pretty much means President. What else?
I don't know any Parties that are Christian. I suspect that identification you mention would have somewhere between a neutral and a negative effect. Not much change there since Constantine.
But the question is: How do we honor President Trump?
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-05-08T04:17:01-04:00 — #10
We read the first part of the statement and somehow the last part seems to go either unnoticed or is not regarded as having bearing on the matter => for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right.
Does the first part of the statement still apply if the "king" and "governors sent by him" are actually doing the following = > for the keeping and praise of evildoers and the punishment of those who do right and speak up. ??
Are God's followers instructed here to submit to an evil authority and his/her envoys who do and promote the exact opposite of what is stipulated regarding what they are supposed to be doing (punishing evil, praising what is right)?
Then follows the the phrase "For such is the will of God that ..." => in other words, what now follows is that will of God, and that is certainly not "submit to evil and evil human institutions, just because they are in a position of authority", but what is it? => "by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men" !!
The then following part further clarifies that the initial part cannot mean to submit to any and all kings, authorities, etc ...because if we would submit to an evil authority we would do the exact opposite of what the opening part of the last statement says => "do NOT use your freedom as a covering for evil" !! IF we were to submit to evil king / authority as IF It were ordained of God and thus were right and good, we would be providing a covering for (and even be supporting) evil.
Rom 13 is NOT speaking about any and all authority ... but only about that authority ordained by God, and in the broader context of Rom 12 - 15 the overall context there is the body of Christ, the assembly of followers of Christ ... and NOT worldly states, kingdoms, etc ...
1Ti 2:1ff is NOT speaking about praying for kings, etc for their good and benefit, but is about prayer for the good and the benefit of us as believers, that we may lead a quiet and peaceful life.
dave_l — 2017-05-08T04:55:50-04:00 — #11
First I would say in fearing God we should;“... Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.” Matthew 22:21 (KJV 1900)
While at the same time we should honor (respect) those God places in office. Knowing that we criticize God in his providence when we criticize those appointed by him. “.....till he [Nebuchadnezzar] knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that he appointeth over it whomsoever he will.” Daniel 5:21 (KJV 1900)
We might not like the Ruler but it is God who controls his every move. “The king’s heart is like a stream of water directed by the LORD; he guides it wherever he pleases.” Proverbs 21:1 (NLT)
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-05-08T04:59:19-04:00 — #12
Trump has already handed over his authority to the real rulers in Washington ... and it is those evil powers one should resist ...
Seems like before getting to the Washington swamp, Trump may have been determined to drain it ...but was not smart enough nor had the real means to swiftly and decisively get rid of the snakes in the swamp and thus was "deprogrammed" within a very few months time and the evil empire powers (Neocons - Ziocons) have started up to again move ahead with their plans (after having had a real scare for a short time when their plans with Hillary didn't materialize at the presidential election)
Seems like those Americans who were part of the Hillary voting side now think that the evil Trump has been tamed ... seems to me they have fallen pray to the trap laid out by the Neocon/Ziocon powers.
alex_vaughn — 2017-05-08T22:42:35-04:00 — #13
Well, the US isn't a monarchy. The President derives his authority from the people. Also, why wouldn't legislators, judges, governors, mayors, or any government official fall under this category? Although none are sent by a king or few by the President.
As to respect, I'd hold to my previous statement that respect consists of following the laws that are not against God's Kingdom. I'd also go further to stay that it is a Christian duty to speak the truth to power as the prophets of old did.
gao_lu — 2017-05-09T01:41:04-04:00 — #14
It is my understanding that they do..."pray....for kings and all those in authority..."
Indeed, Prophets of old should do so, Do you know of any such NT implication? If so, how do we confront while honoring fully? I suggest Jesus provided the best example.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think we should roll over and play dead. But by way of discussion, how can we both stand for God's truth, and honor the king (or related authority type) which is clearly God's heart? How with our words and actions and manner of life? Do those around us recognize what we are doing to be honoring the king?
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-05-09T01:57:41-04:00 — #15
Why should "kings and those in authority" be honored when they do evil, while someone who is not a king or in authority doing evil should not be honored? or should anyone be honored no matter whether they do good or do evil?
Seems to me that a proper understanding of those passages speaking about "kings and those in authority" must be understood in light of the overall scope of Scripture and how believers are to deal with evil, rather than taking those few verses out of context and making a general rule of them as if they demanded that "kings and those in authority" could do whatever evil and followers of Christ should honor them and their doings ...
gao_lu — 2017-05-09T03:24:08-04:00 — #16
The question isn't really, what are reasons to ignore the Scripture, or how can we get around what they say, or is Trump worthy of honor. We seem to have plenty of reasons not to do what Scriptures teach. The question is, in light of Scripture, how do we honor Trump? Can we just talk about that? If we want to talk about ways and reasons to dishonor the king, maybe there is a non-Christian forum for that.
- The context was Roman emperors which technically were not kings and may have been worse than Trump.
- So what do you think "honor the king and those in authority " means in light of the Scriptures?
- How do we go about doing so? (I keep repeating this, but it seems no one has an answer. Wrong forum maybe?)
bill_coley — 2017-05-09T03:26:57-04:00 — #17
A verse in Ephesians and one in 1 Thessalonians come to mind for me, Wolfgang...
11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.
The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Eph 5:11). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
22 Abstain from every form of evil.
The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (1 Th 5:22). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
OF COURSE, people will disagree as to what qualifies as "evil," but the biblical mandate certainly seems to be not to participate in - by which I mean equip or enable - evil, including threatened/accomplished by political leaders or the systems they lead.
Because people stood up against the evil of slavery and discrimination in the U.S. and the political leaders (the "kings") who implemented it, we experienced change - not final change, but change nonetheless. Had we honored those kings, God only knows how long it would have taken us to get where we are today. I think the current political and judicial momentum in this country means there is little chance of the nation's body politic honoring President Trump.
gao_lu — 2017-05-09T10:31:16-04:00 — #18
You have your quite a list of your own personal reasons for dishonoring the king, which might make a nice thread in a non-Christian forum. The topic of this thread is how to honor President Trump. Pleased don't troll.
alex_vaughn — 2017-05-09T14:16:41-04:00 — #19
Thanks, @Bill_Coley for bringing up these issues. What would have happened if Sojurner Truth, Fredrick Douglas, Martin Luther King, Jr and others had not spoken up when under oppression? To not do so as a Christian, leads to the world looking less like God's Kingdom that a Christian should help further.
Indeed, the prophets of old spoke against the kings of Judah, Israel, and their neighbors. John the Baptist spoke against Herod for divorcing his wife (Mark 6). And, Jesus spoke against the Sanhedrin, which also held some authority to punish fellow Jews at the time. Did God ever ask these prophets to lead a revolution or insurrection against rulers (with the exception of Judges)? No, but the prophets did use very harsh language against rulers and called them to account.
Some are also called to be prophets in the New Testament according to Eph. 4:11-16. Telling the truth is not disrespect, which consists partly of spreading information that has no basis in fact.
bill_coley — 2017-05-09T15:12:16-04:00 — #20
Please don't troll, Alex. [... My goodness. Isn't that what I just did?! This posting business is SO confusing!]
As long as we're both trolling, I'll applaud your commentary, whose biblical examples are spot-on and telling. Thanks.
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