alex_vaughn — 2017-09-13T23:55:13-04:00 — #1
This story about Dwight Moody struck me as illustrating the power of asking for forgiveness particularly when the one seeking is the authority figure.
I was struck by a story about Dwight Moody (1837-1899) related by his son Paul 50 yrs after the event. The story is that Paul was up past bedtime with a friend. His father observed this and returned to command him to go to bed. Paul immediately retreated in tears for it was "almost unheard of that he should speak with such directness or give an order unaccompanied by a smile." Shortly afterward, Dwight was kneeling at his son's bedside seeking his forgiveness for he "never intended to speak crossly to one of his children." This one event had a greater effect on Paul than any of his father's many sermons. It also gave Paul "an understanding of the meaning of the Fatherhood of God, and a belief in the love of God".
Dwight Moody is better known as a preacher connected with the Holiness Movement and founder of the Moody Bible Institute and Moody Publishers.
Source: Phillip Greven, Spare the Child (1990) pp.15-16
gao_lu — 2017-09-14T00:29:32-04:00 — #2
Just as true in marriage.
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-14T06:37:56-04:00 — #3
I like this.
Also, Alex (or anyone else) I am curious what you know of Holiness Movement?
dave_l — 2017-09-14T08:46:40-04:00 — #4
There are many sources on the Internet that give similar definitions of holiness being a subjective perfectionism grounded in self vs. an objective perfectionism grounded in Christ.
But my experience with those in the holiness movement leaves me thinking it is more or less obedience to dress codes and avoiding certain social practices they consider taboo. Some customs to avoid would be smoking, dancing, drinking, women wearing anything but a dress, and going to movies.
But in scripture, true holiness is found in having God's love as the motive behind every thought and action. And rejecting all thoughts and acts contrary to love.
alex_vaughn — 2017-09-14T09:30:01-04:00 — #5
Thanks for the information. I am not aware of the details of the Holiness Movement or Moody's theology. I just wanted to give some general information about him for context.
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-14T11:49:26-04:00 — #6
I was curious as to others thoughts about it, I myself am a Holiness -Full Gospel Minister.
Holiness is not about dress codes/obedience as much as it is about being set-aside & set-apart. Making sure not to look & act so much like the world, that those looking for Jesus, can't see him in you. Living a clean and dedicated life, to provide the Holy Ghost a clean temple to work through as he desires.
Some Churches in the movement harp expressly on rules and miss the ministry entirely. Understandable. Can't do anything with that, as I'm no leader or anything.
I would like to study history of it more, I've heard of some great movements within the Holiness Ministry itself.
gao_lu — 2017-09-14T16:50:11-04:00 — #7
The concept of the Holiness Movement, in general, is good, but like any good thing taken to the extreme, doesn't alway end well. The Holiness Movement assumes the capacity to achieve absolute holiness. This brings Methodists, Salvation Army, Nazarenes, etc. into conflict with Reformed Brethren who say original sin remains in everyone.
A curious and effective if very contentious relationship existed between George Whitefield, who drifted here and there theologically but settled on devout Calvinism, and John Wesley who was anything but Calvinist. Probably they understood something many polarized Christians today miss.
My view is that both sides have good objectives, even if both sides use unnecessarily polarizing terminology to describe it. I really think both sides see and desire the same target. The contention is over which words to use to describe the path to that target.
dave_l — 2017-09-14T19:15:37-04:00 — #8
If you are a "holiness" person, does that mean others of a different persuasion are unholy?
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-14T19:30:35-04:00 — #9
Does being a baptist minister mean others are not baptized.
dave_l — 2017-09-14T19:34:12-04:00 — #10
It just seems that if someone says they are "holiness", it is insinuating everyone of a different persuasion is not.
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-14T19:44:40-04:00 — #11
You feel the same way about Baptist? Same question
dave_l — 2017-09-14T19:53:19-04:00 — #12
I think any name other than Christian divides the Body of Christ.
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-14T21:18:17-04:00 — #13
They were first called Christians at Antioch. Before, sect of the nazarines. Witnesses, believers. Even Beelzebub. We've been called everything.
I identify with holiness because I believe in what I am taught. And that's what we are called. I didn't pick the name. My response when asked who or what I am, my favorite response is :witness to the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
dave_l — 2017-09-15T06:43:43-04:00 — #14
But holiness does not exist unless you and your church are as pure as Jesus. The only way we can be holy is through Christ's imputed righteousness. “For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own righteousness, they did not submit to the righteousness of God.” (Romans 10:2–3)
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-15T09:59:27-04:00 — #15
We are to perfect Holiness within us:
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
2 Corinthians 7:1
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
1 Peter 1:15-16
How to attain Holiness:
Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way?
by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
The calling we accept is Holy:
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.
2 Timothy 1:9
Search and see if I be Holy Before You Lord:
Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: And see if there be any wicked way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting.
Christ Jesus Mind was Holy:
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus.
Unholiness should not be named among Saints:
But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints.
Holiness apart from the world:
Do all things without murmurings and disputings: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; Holding forth the word of life.
Every time we pray or go before the Lord:
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Jesus is Holy
There is none holy as the Lord: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
1 Samuel 2:2
How can Jesus Dwell in an unholy Temple:
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place,
with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
Anyone who teaches unholiness:
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Jesus Name is Holy, to Which we are to bear, not in vain
Bless the Lord, O my soul:and all that is within me, bless his holy name.
A Holy God desires to dwell within
Seek good, and not evil, that ye may live: and so the Lord, the God of hosts, shall be with you,
as ye have spoken.
Woe to those:
It is a snare to the man who devoureth that which is holy, and after vows to make enquiry.
If we be of god, Holiness is our Garments proudly worn
No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light.
We are his Habitation, Holy
Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name Jah, and rejoice before him. A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows, is God in his holy habitation.
Seek to know Holiness
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
Be as He is
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
He commands us to be Holy unto Him
And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the Lord am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
dave_l — 2017-09-15T10:06:19-04:00 — #16
If you want to be completely holy as Jesus was, sell all you have, and empty your bank account becoming homeless for the sake of the poor.
“Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go and sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. And come, follow Me.”” (Matthew 19:21)
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-15T10:45:55-04:00 — #17
Dave, What do you want? Is there something I have that you are in need of? I would Gladly share with you - knowledge maybe? understanding is it? Or desire? You present a self righteous view in every discourse then project your inward feelings when I declared unto you, I was a minister of Holiness.
Is it that you are filled with the knowledge of God, and have found so great a revelation that everyone else has missed? since in every discourse you are right and everyone else is wrong. And If this is true, Why are you not out amongst the needy sharing this great revelation -
Do you feel some type of way because I've declared myself a minister of Holiness. There's no great recognition in that title, no great prestige. I am a servant of Holiness. I've dedicated my life, to believing the Word of Jesus exactly as it is written. There's no Title or fame in what I've become. There is no great following. Just great sacrifice.
Even among the Christian faith, I am an outcast, being a follower after Holiness. Most of my beliefs are not shared among popular Christianity. Yet I stand fully persuaded in my faith. I didn't ask you to believe Like I do, nor to understand. As my brother in Christ, you should be happy for how choose to follow Christ - instead of attempting to demean my walk. However, God bless you.
dave_l — 2017-09-15T17:44:37-04:00 — #18
I would like for people who call themselves holy to live as pure a life as Jesus did. Or else stop calling themselves holy.
gao_lu — 2017-09-15T18:14:24-04:00 — #19
Sometimes you alarm me.
“Without holiness no one will see the Lord” Heb 12:14
"We have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Heb 10:10
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-15T21:59:09-04:00 — #20
It may be more Christ like, for you to stop your assessment & cynicism of others all together. Who are you to judge another mans servant? Examine yourself see if you be in the faith. Swatting a gnat while ignoring the camel is blinding.
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