will_scholten — 2017-02-15T19:55:45-05:00 — #1
I think it is time we really look at this topic, we say gentile means non Jew, and in the scriptures the Hebrew words goy and goyim and the Greek word ethnos can mean Jews and Israel, we have a major problem.
I know I am stepping on toes again, but surely, I can not be the only one seeing all these red flags!!I know there are many many awesome pastors, teachers and elders out there, doing there very best, I want to thank you. I know many churches have there pastors working way to many hours, but is the busyness good or bad?
I think we spend way to much time in the last 1/3 of the book, and skip over the front 2/3rds. If we knew the front better it would help us understand so much more of what the back is talking about. , but that would go against the traditions, we are stuck in. I don't know how many times at Bible studies at church, I butt heads with so many people when I ask them who the "gentiles" are! I can ask, who does the scripture tell us, who are the 2 that become one, read you OT for the answers, I can bring up Jeremiah 30:11, and tell them this has not happened yet, who is getting destroyed??
Even in the NT, Yahushua will tell us He came for the "lost sheep of Israel" and the "saints will sit on the 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel."
Is it to hard for the "church" to admit they were wrong, just easier to keep unity, and not cause a division?
What is it costing all those great people that are doing what the leaders are telling them?
If YHWH is going to save Israel and destroy the nations where they are scattered", may be it is time we teach that, which would mean keeping YHWH'S S**ABBA**TH Day Holy, the feast, Torah, and dietary, these ARE NOT JEWISH, they are YHWH'S RIGHT!!
It's time we start listening to YHWH"S commands and leave our traditions of man behind.
If we don't want to live the way He says He wants His Chosen to live in this life, why would He think we would want to in the next life.
We need to give YHWH and His Word the authority He commands.
This should be enough to get a discussion going, I can add more latter, there is plenty of scripture to support this.
9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is abomination.
Benisch, A. (Trans.). (1852–1864). Jewish School and Family Bible (Vol. I–IV, Pr 28:9). London: Longman, Brown, Green, and Longmans; Longman and Co.
will_scholten — 2017-02-16T06:39:59-05:00 — #2
“All nations” translates panta ta ethnē. The two main options for interpreting ethnē are Gentiles (non-Jews) and peoples (somewhat equivalent to ethnic groups). The former translation is popular among those who see either Jesus or Matthew as believing that God once-for-all rejected the Jews. We have repeatedly seen evidence that calls this perspective into serious question (see under 10:23; 23:39; 24:30; 27:25). Matthew’s most recent uses of ethnē (24:9, 14; 25:32) seem to include Jews and Gentiles alike as the recipients of evangelism and judgment. God is not turning his back on Jewish people here. What has changed is that they can no longer be saved simply by trusting in God under the Mosaic covenant. All who wish to be in fellowship with God must now come to him through Jesus.
Blomberg, C. (1992). Matthew (Vol. 22, pp. 431–432). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.
dave_l — 2017-02-16T09:39:59-05:00 — #3
Thanks for your posts Will. Our main difference is that you externalize Israel and the NT makes circumcision of the heart the badge of membership in Christ. In Exodus 12:48 no uncircumcised could eat of the Passover. The same is true in the New Covenant. Only the circumcised in heart (Born-again) can partake of Christ our passover. So it matters not who or what gentiles are, but who's heart God circumcised making them the true members of Israel.
will_scholten — 2017-02-16T20:46:55-05:00 — #4
Same as the OT;
6 The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.
The New International Version. (2011). (Dt 30:6). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Thanks for your response Dave, but this changes things in a big way!
Remember Moses was instructed to copy the heavenly sanctuary, right.
Now read Ezekiel 44:
6 Say to rebellious Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Enough of your detestable practices, people of Israel! 7 In addition to all your other detestable practices, you brought foreigners uncircumcised in heart and flesh into my sanctuary, desecrating my temple while you offered me food, fat and blood, and you broke my covenant. 8 Instead of carrying out your duty in regard to my holy things, you put others in charge of my sanctuary. 9 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and flesh is to enter my sanctuary, not even the foreigners who live among the Israelites.
The New International Version. (2011). (Eze 44:6–9). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Remember the order, first your heart needs to be circumcised, then the flesh is a sign of what has been done on the inside. This is what Paul was having trouble with, they were circumcising and were not worried about the heart, just be circumcised and be saved! That is why Paul says circumcision or uncircumcision mean nothing, what counts is keeping YHWH'S commands.
This changes how we interpret Acts 15 also, the scattered returning to YHWH'S ways, not the non Jews/Israel turning to !!!
dave_l — 2017-02-17T05:09:30-05:00 — #5
I was just reading this a few minutes ago and hope to share. “And every firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb; and if thou wilt not redeem it, then thou shalt break his neck: and all the firstborn of man among thy children shalt thou redeem.” (Exodus 13:13)
I think this illustrates the stubbornness of the donkey like unto the human heart. Since both the firstborn donkey and the boy need the same redemption. We can become pliable based on seeing miracles for a while but always return to our stubborn donkey like ways. We see this many times throughout scripture where miracles produce head faith. Jesus did not commit himself to these sight believers. But sight faith always falters. The constant miracles in the Exodus and the continual whining and threats against Moses. But we loose our "donkiness" in the circumcision of the heart (New Birth) and develop a heart of Love and Faith on a spiritual level towards God.
will_scholten — 2017-02-17T06:11:16-05:00 — #6
Yes, I like that!!
I think we circumcise our hearts by keeping His instructions for being "set apart"
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
The New International Version. (2011). (Eze 36:26–27). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
dave_l — 2017-02-17T06:24:02-05:00 — #7
Does an 8 day old infant circumcise himself? Neither can we circumcise our own hearts even though sometimes commanded to.....
will_scholten — 2017-02-17T06:29:48-05:00 — #8
No, but the parents would strive to bring him/her up in the covenant.
dave_l — 2017-02-17T06:31:39-05:00 — #9
And circumcision of the heart brought believing Jews into the New Covenant. And God circumcises the heart of all who believe or else they would not believe.
will_scholten — 2017-02-17T20:46:38-05:00 — #10
23 The LORD said to her,
“Two nations are in your womb,
and two peoples from within you will be separated;
one people will be stronger than the other,
and the older will serve the younger.”
The New International Version. (2011). (Ge 25:23). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
"nations" is goy, the scripture cannot say 2 gentiles(non jew/Israel) here can it!!
19 But his father refused and said, “I know, my son, I know. He too will become a people, and he too will become great. Nevertheless, his younger brother will be greater than he, and his descendants will become a group of nations.” 20 He blessed them that day and said,
“In your name will Israel pronounce this blessing:
The New International Version. (2011). (Ge 48:19–20). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, 52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one. 53 So from that day on they plotted to take his life.
The New International Version. (2011). (Jn 11:51–53). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
"nation" is ethnos!!
35 “Am I a Jew?” Pilate replied. “Your own people and chief priests handed you over to me. What is it you have done?”
The New International Version. (2011). (Jn 18:35). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
"people" is enthnos
**I think you can see the problem, we are facing!! yes there are more, but all we need is one, to prove it wrong!!
Romans 11 talks about gentiles being grafted in to make "Israel jealous, it does not say Israel!!!
Who does the scripture tell us will be joined together??
I Will Be Their God; They Shall Be My People
15 The word of the LORD came to me: 16 “Son of man, take a stick and write on it, ‘For Judah, and the people of Israel associated with him’; then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph (the stick of Ephraim) and all the house of Israel associated with him.’ 17 And join them one to another into one stick, that they may become one in your hand. 18 And when your people say to you, ‘Will you not tell us what you mean by these?’ 19 say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I am about to take the stick of Joseph (that is in the hand of Ephraim) and the tribes of Israel associated with him. And I will join with it the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, that they may be one in my hand. 20 When the sticks on which you write are in your hand before their eyes, 21 then say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the people of Israel from the nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and bring them to their own land. 22 And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. And one king shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols and their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions. But I will save them from all the backslidings in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
24 “My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall walk in my rules and be careful to obey my statutes. 25 They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children’s children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”
The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Eze 37:15–28). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
The 2 being joined are Judah and Ephraim, not the church, who has no claim to being Israel!
The church claims the Sabbath and other feast are Jewish!
When scriptures tell us;
23 Then Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the ⌊Israelites⌋, and say to them, ‘The festivals of Yahweh that you shall proclaim are holy assemblies; these are my appointed times.
3 “ ‘For six days work is to be done, and on the seventh day shall be ⌊a Sabbath of complete rest⌋, a holy assembly; you shall not do any work; it shall be a Sabbath for Yahweh in all your dwellings.
4 “ ‘These are Yahweh’s appointed times, holy assemblies, which you shall proclaim at their appointed time. 5 In the first month, on the fourteenth of the month at the evening is Yahweh’s Passover. 6 And on the fifteenth day of this month is Yahweh’s Feast of Unleavened Bread; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. 7 On the first day there shall be a holy assembly for you; you shall not do ⌊any regular work⌋. 8 And you shall present an offering for Yahweh made by fire for seven days; on the seventh day there shall be a holy assembly; you shall not do ⌊any regular work⌋.’ ”
The Feast of Firstfruits
9 Then Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying, 10 “Speak to the ⌊Israelites⌋, and say to them, ‘When you come to the land that I am about to give to you and you reap its harvest, then you shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruit of your harvest to the priest. 11 And he shall wave the sheaf ⌊before⌋ Yahweh for your acceptance; the priest shall wave it ⌊on the day after⌋ the Sabbath. 12 And on the day of your waving the sheaf you shall ⌊offer⌋ a ⌊yearling⌋ male lamb without defect as a burnt offering to Yahweh. 13 And its grain offering shall be two-tenths of an ephah of finely milled flour mixed with oil, an offering made by fire for Yahweh, an appeasing fragrance; and its libation shall be a fourth of a hin of wine. 14 And you shall not eat bread or roasted grain or ripe grain until ⌊this very same day⌋, until you present your God’s offering. This must be ⌊a lasting statute⌋ for your generations in all your dwellings.
The Feast of Weeks
15 “ ‘And you shall count for yourselves ⌊from the day after⌋ the Sabbath, from the day of your bringing the wave offering’s sheaf—there shall be seven full weeks. 16 Until ⌊the day after⌋ the seventh Sabbath you shall count fifty days; then you shall present a new grain offering for Yahweh. 17 You shall bring from your dwellings for a wave offering two loaves of bread ⌊made with⌋ two-tenths of an ephah of finely milled flour; they must be baked with leaven—the firstfruits ⌊belonging to⌋ Yahweh. 18 And, in addition to the bread, you shall present seven ⌊yearling⌋ male lambs without defects and one ⌊young bull⌋ and two rams—they shall be a burnt offering for Yahweh with their grain offering and their libations, an offering made by fire, an appeasing fragrance for Yahweh. 19 And you shall ⌊offer⌋ one he-goat as a sin offering and two ⌊yearling⌋ male lambs as a sacrifice of fellowship offerings. 20 And the priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits as a wave offering ⌊before⌋ Yahweh; in addition to the two male lambs, they shall be holy for Yahweh for the priest. 21 And ⌊you shall make a proclamation⌋ on ⌊this very same day⌋; it shall be a holy assembly for you; you shall not do ⌊any regular work⌋; this is a ⌊lasting statute⌋ in all your dwellings throughout your generations. 22 And when you reap the harvest of your land, you must not finish the edge of your field at your reaping, and you must not glean the remnants of your harvest—you shall leave them behind for the needy and for the alien; I am Yahweh your God.’ ”
The Feast of Trumpets
23 Then Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying, 24 “Speak to the ⌊Israelites⌋, saying, ‘In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ⌊you must have⌋ a rest period, a remembrance of the trumpet blast, a holy assembly. 25 You must not do ⌊any regular work⌋, and you shall present an offering made by fire to Yahweh.’ ”
The Day of Atonement
26 Then Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying, 27 “Surely the Day of Atonement is on the tenth day of the seventh month; it shall be a holy assembly for you, and you shall deny yourselves, and you shall present an offering made by fire to Yahweh. 28 And you must not do ⌊any regular work⌋ on ⌊this very same day⌋, because it is the Day of Atonement to make atonement for you ⌊before⌋ Yahweh your God. 29 If there is any person who does not deny himself on ⌊this very same day⌋, then he shall be cut off from his people. 30 As for any person who does any work on ⌊this very same day⌋, I will exterminate that person from the midst of his people. 31 You must not do any work; it is a ⌊lasting statute⌋ throughout your generations in all your dwellings. 32 It is ⌊a Sabbath of complete rest⌋ for you, and you shall deny yourselves on the ninth day of the month in the evening—from evening to evening you must observe your extraordinary Sabbath.”
The Feast of Booths
33 Then Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying, 34 “Speak to the ⌊Israelites⌋, saying, ‘On the fifteenth day of the seventh month, this shall be the Feast of Booths for seven days for Yahweh. 35 On the first day there shall be a holy assembly; you must not do any ⌊regular work⌋. 36 For seven days you must present an offering made by fire to Yahweh. On the eighth day it shall be a holy assembly for you, and you shall present an offering made by fire to Yahweh; it is a celebration; you must not do ⌊any regular work⌋.
37 “ ‘These are Yahweh’s festivals, which you must proclaim, holy assemblies to present an offering made by fire to Yahweh—burnt offering and grain offering, sacrifice and libations, ⌊each on its proper day⌋— 38 ⌊besides⌋ Yahweh’s Sabbaths and ⌊besides⌋ your gifts and ⌊besides⌋ your vows and ⌊besides⌋ all your freewill offerings that you give to Yahweh.
39 “ ‘Surely on the fifteenth day of the seventh month, at your gathering the land’s produce, you shall hold Yahweh’s festival for seven days; on the first day there shall be a rest period and on the eighth day a rest period. 40 And on the first day you shall take for yourselves the first fruit of majestic trees, branches of palm trees and branches of a leafy tree and of a brook’s poplar trees, and you shall rejoice ⌊before⌋ Yahweh your God for seven days. 41 And you must hold it as a festival for Yahweh for seven days in the year; it shall be a ⌊lasting statute⌋ throughout your generations; in the seventh month you must hold it. 42 You must live in the booths for seven days; all the natives in Israel must live in the booths, 43 so that your generations shall know that I made the ⌊Israelites⌋ live in booths when I brought them from the land of Egypt; I am Yahweh your God.’ ”
44 Thus Moses announced to the ⌊Israelites⌋ Yahweh’s appointed times.
Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Le 23:1–44). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
49 One law will be for the native and for the alien who is dwelling in your midst.
Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Ex 12:49). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
22 ⌊You must have⌋ one norm; as for the alien, so it must be for the native, because I am Yahweh your God.’ ”
Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Le 24:22). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
29 For the native among the ⌊Israelites⌋ and the alien that dwells in their midst, there will be one law for anyone who commits an unintentional wrong. 30 But the one ⌊who acts presumptuously⌋ from among the native or alien blasphemes against Yahweh, and that person must be cut off from the midst of the people. 31 Because he despised the word of Yahweh and broke his command, that person will be surely cut off and bear the guilt.’ ”
Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Nu 15:29–31). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
Remember we can become as Israel like Rahab and the mixed multitude that Egypt with Israel.
I don't want to make it to long, so I will stop here.
dave_l — 2017-02-18T05:22:55-05:00 — #11
Thanks for taking time with this. But I can best reply by giving my view of the Millennium. I believe the Millennium is discernable to a degree on earth. Children and sinners now living past 100 years old. And the Churches (Christian Israel) globally beating swords into plowshares even though the world remains at war. But all the golden age prophecies taking place in Heaven and on earth now. Where Jesus presently sits on David’s Throne, ruling the nations with a rod of iron.
“Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ…..” (Acts 2:30–31) God began creating the New Heavens and earth when he began creating the people (believers) who will occupy the New Heavens and Earth..
will_scholten — 2017-02-18T06:20:43-05:00 — #12
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the chosen who are residing temporarily in the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and for sprinkling with the blood of Jesus Christ. May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (1 Pe 1:1–2). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
Who does Peter say they are going to? to the chosen who are residing temporarily in the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
4 For Yah has chosen Jacob for himself,
Israel as his special possession.
Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Ps 135:4). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
24 But he answered and* said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Mt 15:24). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
10 But you must not fear, my servant Jacob,’ ⌊declares⌋ Yahweh,
‘and you must not be dismayed, Israel,
for look, I am going to save you from far,
and your offspring from the land of their captivity.
And Jacob will return,
and he will be at rest,
and he will be at ease,
and there will be no one who makes him afraid.
11 For I am with you,’ ⌊declares⌋ Yahweh, ‘to save you.
**For I will make a complete destruction
of all the nations to which I scattered you,
but you I will not make a complete destruction.
And I will chastise you to the measure,
and I will not leave you entirely unpunished.’**
Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Je 30:10–11). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
3 The earth shall be utterly laid waste,
and it shall be utterly plundered,
for Yahweh has spoken this word.
4 The earth dries up, it withers;
the world languishes, it withers.
The elevated of the people of the earth languish,
5 and the earth is defiled beneath its inhabitants.
For they have transgressed laws;
they have passed by statutes;
they have broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore a curse devours the earth,
and the inhabitants in it suffer for their guilt.
Therefore the inhabitants of the earth burn,
and ⌊few men are left⌋.
Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Is 24:3–6). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
Do you think the "few men left" are the ones who keep His covenant?
Think the following is Jews and scattered Israel??
Jewish and Gentile Believers United in Christ
11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, the so-called uncircumcision by the so-called circumcision in the flesh, made by hands, 12 that you were at that time apart from Christ, alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, not having hope, and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you, the ones who once were far away, have become near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who made both one and broke down the dividing wall of the partition, the enmity, in his flesh, 15 invalidating the law of commandments in ordinances, in order that he might create the two in himself into one new man, thus* making peace, 16 and might reconcile both in one body to God through the cross, killing the enmity in himself. 17 And coming, he proclaimed the good news of peace to you who were far away and peace to the ones who were near, 18 because through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 Consequently, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens of the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are built up together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Eph 2:11–22). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
28 And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you that in the renewal of the world, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me—you also will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Mt 19:28). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
4 In those days and in that time,’ ” ⌊declares⌋ Yahweh,
“the people of Israel will come,
they and the people of Judah together.
⌊Weeping as they go⌋, they will go,
and Yahweh their God they will seek.
5 They will ask the way to Zion,
turning their faces there.
They will come and join themselves to Yahweh
by ⌊an everlasting covenant⌋ that will not be forgotten.
6 My people have become lost sheep,
their shepherds have caused them to go astray.
They led them away to the mountains.
From mountain to hill they have gone,
they have forgotten their resting place.
Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Je 50:4–6). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
How do these fit with Acts 15?
13 And after they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, “Men and brothers, listen to me! 14 Simeon has described how God first concerned himself to take from among the Gentiles a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
16 ‘After these things I will return
and build up again the tent of David that has fallen,
and the parts of it that had been torn down I will build up again
and will restore it,
17 so that the rest of humanity may seek the Lord,
even all the Gentiles ⌊who are called by my name⌋,
says the Lord, who makes these things 18 known from of old.’
19 Therefore I conclude we should not cause difficulty for those from among the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but we should write a letter to them to abstain from the pollution of idols and from sexual immorality and from what has been strangled and from blood. 21 For Moses has those who proclaim him in every city from ancient generations, because he* is read aloud in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”
Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Ac 15:13–21). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
It is the scattered returning!!
49 Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, “You know nothing at all! 50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, 52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one. 53 So from that day on they plotted to take his life.
The New International Version. (2011). (Jn 11:49–53). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Please note;"nation in verses 50 is ethnos!!!!!!
Paul’s Anguish Over Israel
9 I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit—2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised!
The New International Version. (2011). (Ro 9:1–5). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
The church says we are adopted in, that can not happen if we don't become Israel, can it!!
2 The idols speak deceitfully,
diviners see visions that lie;
they tell dreams that are false,
they give comfort in vain.
Therefore the people wander like sheep
oppressed for lack of a shepherd.
3 “My anger burns against the shepherds,
and I will punish the leaders;
for the LORD Almighty will care
for his flock, the people of Judah,
and make them like a proud horse in battle.
4 From Judah will come the cornerstone,
from him the tent peg,
from him the battle bow,
from him every ruler.
5 Together they will be like warriors in battle
trampling their enemy into the mud of the streets.
They will fight because the LORD is with them,
and they will put the enemy horsemen to shame.
6 “I will strengthen Judah
and save the tribes of Joseph.
I will restore them
because I have compassion on them.
They will be as though
I had not rejected them,
for I am the LORD their God
and I will answer them.
The New International Version. (2011). (Zec 10:2–6). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
The Righteous Branch
23 “Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture!” declares the LORD. 2 Therefore this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says to the shepherds who tend my people: “Because you have scattered my flock and driven them away and have not bestowed care on them, I will bestow punishment on you for the evil you have done,” declares the LORD. 3 “I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number. 4 I will place shepherds over them who will tend them, and they will no longer be afraid or terrified, nor will any be missing,” declares the LORD.
5 “The days are coming,” declares the LORD,
“when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
and do what is just and right in the land.
6 In his days Judah will be saved
and Israel will live in safety.
This is the name by which he will be called:
The LORD Our Righteous Savior.
7 “So then, the days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when people will no longer say, ‘As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,’ 8 but they will say, ‘As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the descendants of Israel up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.’ Then they will live in their own land.”
The New International Version. (2011). (Je 23:1–8). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
8 After she had weaned Lo-Ruhamah, Gomer had another son. 9 Then the LORD said, “Call him Lo-Ammi (which means “not my people”), for you are not my people, and I am not your God. t
10 “Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ they will be called ‘children of the living God.’ 11 The people of Judah and the people of Israel will come together; they will appoint one leader and will come up out of the land, for great will be the day of Jezreel. z
The New International Version. (2011). (Ho 1:8–11). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
6 “Come! Come! Flee from the land of the north,” declares the LORD, “for I have scattered you to the four winds of heaven,” declares the LORD.
7 “Come, Zion! Escape, you who live in Daughter Babylon!” 8 For this is what the LORD Almighty says: “After the Glorious One has sent me against the nations that have plundered you—for whoever touches you touches the apple of his eye—9 I will surely raise my hand against them so that their slaves will plunder them. g Then you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me.
10 “Shout and be glad, Daughter Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you,” declares the LORD. 11 “Many nations will be joined with the LORD in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you. 12 The LORD will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land and will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be still before the LORD, all mankind, because he has roused himself from his holy dwelling.
The New International Version. (2011). (Zec 2:6–13). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.
The New International Version. (2011). (Re 7:1–8). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Please note they are ALL from Israel*******
8 When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance,
when he divided all mankind,
he set up boundaries for the peoples
according to the number of the sons of Israel. s
**9 For the LORD’s portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted inheritance**
The New International Version. (2011). (Dt 32:8–9). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
The Nations Judged
3 “In those days and at that time,
when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will gather all nations
and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. e
There I will put them on trial
for what they did to my inheritance, my people Israel,
because they scattered my people among the nations
and divided up my land.
3 They cast lots for my people
and traded boys for prostitutes;
they sold girls for wine to drink.
The New International Version. (2011). (Joe 3:1–3). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:
**“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.**
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
**10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.**
The New International Version. (2011). (Heb 8:7–10). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
These are not my words, but YHWH'S Word
dave_l — 2017-02-18T06:30:06-05:00 — #13
But remember, Peter spent his life reaching the broken off Jews who eventually died off altogether. Circumcision no longer made on a physical Jew after calvary and that generation was dying off. And blood did not make one a Jew since God told Abraham to excommunicate (cut off) all who did not become circumcised. Your entire theory collapses at this point.
will_scholten — 2017-02-18T09:06:11-05:00 — #14
You are getting ahead of me, but that is awesome!!!
We know Peter went to the circumcised, the "Jews" who were broken off!
We know Paul went to the uncircumcised that wold be Ephraim, both were scattered in the nations!
The Holy Spirit Comes at Pentecost
2 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues x as the Spirit enabled them.
5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, d 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”
13 Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine.
The New International Version. (2011). (Ac 2:1–13). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Who, What , When Where Why????
What, When and Why; Keeping YHWH'S Feast, remember, it is the 50th day after Passover!!
Who;14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say.
The New International Version. (2011). (Ac 2:14). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.
The New International Version. (2011). (Ac 2:22–23). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne.
The New International Version. (2011). (Ac 2:29–30). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart
The New International Version. (2011). (Ac 2:36–37). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
The New International Version. (2011). (Ac 2:38–41). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law
The New International Version. (2011). (Ac 21:20). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law
This is a gross understatement; it was an uncountable number!!
36 Whenever it came to rest, he said,
to the **countless thousands of Israel.”**
The New International Version. (2011). (Nu 10:36). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Where did all these "Jews" go?
If they were zealous, I going to say they didn't just die off!!
Really, what does this say?
dave_l — 2017-02-18T09:53:05-05:00 — #15
They became Jews under the Old Covenant and remained so. Only in a broken off state. But after they died off there weren't any replacements. Only ethnic Jews and traditions.
“For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.” (Romans 2:28–29)
will_scholten — 2017-02-18T10:27:29-05:00 — #16
Where do you read this?
I read they were scattered into the nations, where they would be gathered again later, and the nations to where they were scattered would be destroyed!!
The nations have to very different endings, right!
Please show me scripture to support your understanding!!
Yes, this is exactly what the Torah and Paul teach!
The flesh is to be a sign of what is on the inside, but people were teaching if you were circumcised in the flesh, the condition of the heart didn't matter!!
dave_l — 2017-02-18T10:50:15-05:00 — #17
If they received circumcision before Christ's crucifixion they remained valid authentic Jews. But the Crucifixion abolished the Ten Commandments, Circumcision and made the sacrifices and Temple things of the past. So when these died off, there were no authentic replacements for them. We've been over the scripture references time and again so you are familiar with them.
Yes but God defrocked them and cursed them until the end of the world. History amply bears this out as well.
will_scholten — 2017-02-18T13:42:11-05:00 — #18
But scripture says;
11 I am with you and will save you,’
declares the LORD.
‘Though I completely destroy all the nations
among which I scatter you,
I will not completely destroy you.
I will discipline you but only in due measure;
I will not let you go entirely unpunished.’
The New International Version. (2011). (Je 30:11). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
28 Do not be afraid, Jacob my servant,
for I am with you,” declares the LORD.
“Though I completely destroy all the nations
among which I scatter you,
I will not completely destroy you.
I will discipline you but only in due measure;
I will not let you go entirely unpunished.”
The New International Version. (2011). (Je 46:28). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Does scripture contradict scripture? No!
We are to walk as Yahushua walked, He was perfect, He set the goal, no one can touch!!
I showed how Paul kept the Sabbath and the law, and showed you the warning about Paul's writings from Peter.
We talked about scripture being inspired, can it get any more pure than written by the finger of YHWH on stone!!
dave_l — 2017-02-18T13:52:15-05:00 — #19
“Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost [Greek = the end].” (1 Thessalonians 2:15–16)
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (John 3:36)
How can you read the Talmud, or look at Jewish history and think you are onto something, making the Pharisees the people of God? One hundred and nine nations drove them out and killed them before Hitler. And God's judgement on them in AD70 was worse than Hitler. And I do not expect anything good to come out of their occupation of Palestine either.
will_scholten — 2017-02-18T16:14:17-05:00 — #20
14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea
The New International Version. (2011). (1 Th 2:14). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Who did Yahshua and Paul have trouble with?
3 Then the chief priests and the elders of the people assembled in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, 4 and they schemed to arrest Jesus secretly and kill him. 5 “But not during the festival,” they said, “or there may be a riot among the people.”
The New International Version. (2011). (Mt 26:3–5). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
14 Then one of the Twelve—the one called Judas Iscariot—went to the chief priests 15 and asked, “What are you willing to give me if I deliver him over to you?” So they counted out for him thirty pieces of silver. 16 From then on Judas watched for an opportunity to hand him over.
The New International Version. (2011). (Mt 26:14–16). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
the one called Judas Iscariot; Since Judas betrayed Yahushau, does that mean all 12 did it???
The people loved Yahushua, that was the problem, right!
32 He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33 Whoever has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34 For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit
The New International Version. (2011). (Jn 3:32–34). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Where do we find the Words of YHWH? Torah!!
'for God gives the Spirit without limit"
27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
The New International Version. (2011). (Eze 36:27). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
So would the Spirit" move us to keep YHWH "Words"??
6 Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, “My brothers, I am a Pharisee, descended from Pharisees. I stand on trial because of the hope of the resurrection of the dead.” 7 When he said this, a dispute broke out between the Pharisees and the Sadducees, and the assembly was divided. 8 (The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees believe all these things.)
9 There was a great uproar, and some of the teachers of the law who were Pharisees stood up and argued vigorously. “We find nothing wrong with this man,” they said. “What if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him?
The New International Version. (2011). (Ac 23:6–9). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
4 though I myself have reasons for such confidence.
If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.
The New International Version. (2011). (Php 3:4–6). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Notice in these verses, Paul uses the present tense, not the past tense!!
20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
The New International Version. (2011). (Mt 5:20). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
How does the scripture define righteousness?
24 The LORD commanded us to obey all these decrees and to fear the LORD our God, so that we might always prosper and be kept alive, as is the case today. 25 And if we are careful to obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness.”
The New International Version. (2011). (Dt 6:24–25). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
next page →