will_scholten — 2016-10-26T18:24:16-04:00 — #1
Does scripture tell us we need to keep Torah today?
Scripture tells us it is a salvation issue!!
The scriptures below will show ;
Circumcision is forever, no uncircumcised male may eat "passover"and be cut off from His people, because he has broken covenant with YHWH., Yahushua tells His disciples He will not observe it with them again until "the kingdom of YHWH" is here,the elect will keep the "Feast" in the Kingdom of YHWH, the same laws apply to the alien and the native born and we are told to walk as Yahushua walked.
"Blessed is the one who will eat the feast in the kingdom of YHWH", and "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"!
I deleted all the verses I didn't have bolded, so you will see verses missing, the whole reference is listed.
NIV84: The Covenant of Circumcision
The Covenant of Circumcision
17When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty; walk before me and be blameless. 2 I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.”...
. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”
The Holy Bible: New International Version. (1984). (Ge 17:1–14). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
17:1LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty; walk before me and be blameless.
Psalm 119:1 will tell us how to walk "blameless" !( referenced below)
Tags: Ge 17:1–14**
Clipped: October 19, 2016
NIV84: Passover Restrictions
43 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “These are the regulations for the Passover:
“No foreigner is to eat of it. 44 Any slave you have bought may eat of it after you have circumcised him,
48 “An alien living among you who wants to celebrate the LORD’s Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the land. No uncircumcised male may eat of it. 49 The same law applies to the native-born and to the alien living among you.”
The Holy Bible: New International Version. (1984). (Ex 12:43–49). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
No uncircumcised male may eat of it. 49 The same law applies to the native-born and to the alien living among you.”
Tags: Ex 12:43–49
Clipped: October 19, 2016
NIV84: The Last Supper
17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among you. 18 For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”
The Holy Bible: New International Version. (1984). (Lk 22:17–18). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
"until the kingdom of God comes.”
Do you think we are supposed to keep it now, if it will be kept when "the Kingdom of YHWH comes?
Tags: Lk 22:17–18**
Clipped: October 19, 2016
NIV: Chapter 13
27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God
The New International Version. (2011). (Lk 13:23–30). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
So they keep YHWH"S Feast ALL through the scriptures, and the righteous will keep them in in the kingdom yet to come!
But we do not need to keep them now???**
Tags: Lk 13:23–30
Clipped: October 19, 2016
NIV: Chapter 14
The Parable of the Great Banquet
15 When one of those at the table with him heard this, he said to Jesus, “Blessed is the one who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God.” ...
, ‘Come, for everything is now ready.’
18 “But they all alike began to make excuses.
The New International Version. (2011). (Lk 14:15–18). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
How many excuses do we make, not to keep YHWH"S Feast??
Tags: Lk 14:15–18**
Clipped: October 19, 2016
NIV: Chapter 11
. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.... 31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. 32 Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being
The New International Version. (2011). (1 Co 11:27–32). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
footnote after "discipline"
12 Blessed is the one you discipline, LORD,
the one you teach from your law; (Torah)**
The New International Version. (2011). (Ps 94:12). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Tags: 1 Co 11:27–32
Clipped: October 19, 2016
NIV: Psalm 119
1 Blessed are those whose ways are blameless,
who walk according to the law of the LORD.
The New International Version. (2011). (Ps 119:1–8). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
How does verse 1 say you walk blameless?**
The Torah defines righteousness in Dt 6:24-25
24 The LORD commanded us to obey all these decrees and to fear the LORD our God, so that we might always prosper and be kept alive, as is the case today. 25 And if we are careful to obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness.”
The New International Version. (2011). (Dt 6:24–25). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Tags: Ps 119:1–8
Clipped: October 19, 2016
NIV: Chapter 23
The Appointed Festivals
23 The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘These are my appointed festivals, the appointed festivals of the LORD, which you are to proclaim as sacred assemblies.
The New International Version. (2011). (Le 23:1–3). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Yes, the Sabbath, is the first feast listed in Lev. 23, do you think it will be kept in YHWH"S Kingdom? I do!!
Tags: Le 23:1–3
Clipped: October 20, 2016**
17 So the dragon was furious with the woman and left to wage war against the rest of her offspring s—those who keep God’s commands and have the testimony about Jesus.
The Holy Bible: Holman Christian standard version. (2009). (Re 12:17). Nashville: Holman Bible Publishers.
So form Genesis- Revelation, we see how important it is to keep Torah!
Is there anywhere in the scriptures verses that over ride these verses?
We need to remember YHWH is NOT the author of confussion and scripture does not contradict scripture!
wolfgang_schneider — 2016-10-27T01:35:08-04:00 — #2
In light of your post, one can only conclude that you are propagating that the Old Covenant age is still in effect with the OT commandments regarding feasts, associated sacrifices, etc.??
Do you believe that these Old Covenant matters were foreshadows in the earthly, physical realm of a New Covenant reality in the heavenly, spiritual realm? If so, when will the reality replace the shadow?
will_scholten — 2016-10-27T06:53:46-04:00 — #3
Yes, except for the sacrifices, Yahushua was the final sacrifice and there is no temple.
The righteous ones, all though the scriptures kept the "feast days" and Torah, the change came after Biblical times and are a tradition of man.
Paul tells Timothy to remember the gospel he was taught from his grandmother, when he was an infant, this would be out of the first part of the book, Paul and Deut. both tells us of a curses for anyonne, even if an angel tries to change the gospel, Paul couldn't then change the gospel could he?
We are told to walk as Yahushua walked, He set the goal for us, He kept everything perfectly, no we cannot do that but we need to do our best!
Below are some quotes from the reformers:
The first quote is from Martin Luther,
the last quote is from John Calvin.
One should abolish all festivals, retaining only the Lord's day. . . .
My reason is this: with our present abuses of drinking, gambling,
idling, and all manner of sin, we vex God more on holy days than on
others. And the matter is just reversed; we have made holy days unholy,
and working days holy, and do no service, but great dishonour, to
God and His saints with all our holy days. --Martin Luther (German
Reformer), Address to the German Nobility (1520).
This one thing, however, we can scarcely refrain from mentioning,
with regard to what is written in the 24th chapter of the aforesaid
Confession [Second Helvetic] concerning the "festival of our Lord's
nativity, circumcision, passion, resurrection, ascension, and sending
the Holy Ghost upon his disciples," that these festivals at the
present time obtain no place among us; for we dare not religiously
celebrate any other feast-day than what the divine oracles have prescribed.
--The General Assembly of the Church of Scotland [subscribed by
John Knox, John Craig, James Melville, and a host of others], Letter
to the Very Eminent Servant of Christ, Master Theodore Beza, the Most
Learned and Vigilant Pastor of the Genevan Church (1566).
Festival days, vulgarly called holy days, having no warrant in the
word of God, are not to be observed. --Synod of the Associate Reformed
Church in North America, The Constitution and Standards of the
Associate Reformed Church in North America (1874).
To take the ground that the church has a discretionary power to appoint
other holy days and other symbolical rites is to concede to Rome the
legitimacy of her five superfluous sacraments and all her self-devised
paraphernalia of sacred festivals. There is no middle ground. Either
we are bound by the Lord's appointments in his Word, or human discretion
is logically entitled to the full-blown license of Rome. --John
L. Girardeau (professor, Columbia Theological Seminary, Presbyterian
Church in the U.S.), Instrumental Music in the Public Worship
of the Church (1888).
The Protestant Church is fast returning to the heathen ceremonies
of the Church of Rome, vieing with her in the observance of "Easter
Sunday," etc. By means of Christmas trees, Santa Claus is becoming
a greater reality and the object of more affection to children than
the Saviour himself. --Reformed Presbyterian Church (Covenanter),
Minutes of the General Meeting (1889).
That Christians did observe sacred days in the apostle's time these
writers [i.e., those who deny the divine sanction and authority of
the Lord's day] admit, and also that the usage was approved. But they
say it was not founded on any divine authority; the apostle had just
repealed all that. Then on whose authority? That of the uninspired
church. Their view, then, is that the apostle, sweeping away all Sabbaths
and Lord's days, invites Christians to ascend to his lofty and devoted
experience, which had no use for a set Sabbath because all his days
were consecrated. But as it was found that this did not suit the actual
Christian state of most Christians, human authority was allowed, and
even encouraged, to appoint Sundays, Easters and Whitsuntides for
them. The objections are: first, that this countenances 'will-worship,'
or the intrusion of man's inventions into God's service; second, it
is an implied insult to Paul's inspiration, assuming that he made
a practical blunder, which the church synods, wiser than his inspiration,
had to mend by a human expedient; and third, we have here a practical
confession that, after all, the average New Testament Christian does
need a stated holy day, and therefore the ground of the Sabbath command
is perpetual and moral. --Robert L. Dabney (professor, Union Theological
Seminary, Virginia; Theological School at Austin, Texas; University
of Texas; Presbyterian Church in the U.S.), "The Christian Sabbath,"
in Discussions, Vol. 1 (1890).
[T]hose who quote those portions of Scripture in opposition to the
idea of a divine obligation on Christians to observe the Sabbath are
found for the most part, in one section of the Church, and as members
or dignitaries therein they are very far from being consistent. Their
reasoning on behalf of their theory and their practice are diametrically
opposed. If the Apostle Paul were permitted to revisit earth, we might
imagine him addressing them somewhat after the following manner:--'Ye
men of a half-reformed Church, ye observe days and times. Ye have
a whole calendar of so-called saints' days. Ye observe a Holy Thursday
and a Good Friday. Ye have a time called Easter, and a season called
Lent, about which some of you make no small stir. Ye have a day regarded
especially holy, named Christmas, observed at a manifestly wrong season
of the year, and notoriously grafted on an old Pagan festival. And
all this while many of you refuse to acknowledge the continued obligation
of the Fourth Commandment. I am afraid of you, lest the instruction
contained in my epistle, as well as in other parts of Scripture, has
been bestowed upon you in vain.' --Robert Nevin (minister, Reformed
Presbyterian Church in Ireland and editor of the Covenanter
Magazine in Ireland), Misunderstood Scriptures (1893).
Q. 49. What are some of the festival seasons of the Church of
A. They are very numerous; among them the following are the most prominent:
--Christmas, Lady Day, Lent, Easter, and the Feast of the Assumption.
Q. 50. What is the meaning of Christmas?
A. It is a festival held on the 25th of December, in honour of the
birth of Christ. On this day three Masses are performed: one at midnight,
one at daybreak, and one in the morning.
Q. 51 When was this festival introduced?
A. The spurious decretals attributed its institution to Telesphorus,
Bishop of Rome, in the first half of the second century; but the Fathers
of the first three centuries make no mention of it.
Q. 52. What is its most probable origin?
A. That it was not Christian is manifest from the fact that the day
on which the feast is observed could not have been the day of Christ's
birth, inasmuch as from December to February is the cold and rainy
season in Palestine, when the shepherds could not have been "keeping
watch over their flocks by night." The festival is to be traced
partly to the tendency in the fourth century to multiply such seasons,
and, by introducing a festival for each period in Christ's life, to
complete "the Christian year," and partly to the growing tendency
in the church to conciliate the heathen by adopting their religious
Q. 53. Are there any features in the Christmas festival that
point to a Pagan origin?
A. There are several: the name, the time of its observance, and the
ceremonies associated with it.
Q. 54. Explain these features in detail.
A. The name "Yule Day," given to Christmas, is Pagan. According
to some the word Yule is derived from huel, a wheel, and was meant
to designate the Pagan sun feast in commemoration of the turn of the
sun and the lengthening of the day. According to others it was the
Chaldee name for "infant," and was meant to designate the
feast in honour of the birth of the son of the Babylonian Queen of
Heaven. The time indicates a Pagan origin, for it was at the time
of the winter solstice that the Pagan festival just referred to was
celebrated. The ceremonies of the "Drunken festival" of Babylon
have their counterpart in the wassail bowl and the revels that in
all Popish countries have been characteristic of Christmas.
Q. 55. Is this festival warranted in Scripture?
A. No. The Scriptures are silent regarding the day and month of Christ's
birth, and it is admitted by the best writers that the precise day
cannot now be ascertained from any source. Christ commanded His disciples
to commemorate His death, but He gave no command concerning
His birth. --John M'Donald (minister, Reformed Presbyterian
Church of Scotland; member, Scottish Reformation Society), Romanism
Analysed in the Light of Scripture, Reason, and History (1894).
erection and regular
observance of other holy days. Had God seen their regular recurrence
was desirable they would have been appointed. Their use has been spiritually
damaging. They often become centers of ceremonialism and sensual worship.
--J. A. Grier, (professor, Allegheny Theological Seminary, United
Presbyterian Church), Synoptical Lectures on Theological Subjects (1896).
There is no warrant in Scripture for the observance of Christmas and
Easter as holy days, rather the contrary (see Gal. 4:9-11; Col. 2:16-21),
and such observance is contrary to the principles of the Reformed
Faith, conducive to will worship, and not in harmony with the simplicity
of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. --General Assembly of the Presbyterian
Church in the United States (Southern Presbyterians), Deliverance
on Christmas and Easter (1899).
Q. 7. Is it not a daring intrusion upon the prerogative of God to
appoint as a stated religious festival any other day or season, such
as Christmas or Easter?
A. It is an impeachment of the wisdom of God and an assertion of our
right and ability to improve on his plans. --James Harper (professor,
Xenia Theological Seminary, United Presbyterian Church), An
Exposition in the Form of Question and Answer of the Westminster Assembly's
Shorter Catechism (1905
Festival days, commonly called holy-days, having no warrant in the
Word, are not to be observed. --Associate Reformed Presbyterian
Synod, Constitution of the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (1937).
In former times the Reformed Presbyterian Church was solidly opposed
to the religious observance of Christmas, Easter and other special
days of the same kind. . . . [W]e should realize that we Covenanters,
in opposing the observance of Easter and other "holy" days,
are only holding to the original principle which was once held by
all Presbyterians everywhere. It is not the Covenanters
that have changed. . . . [T]he apostle Paul regards this observance
of days as a bad tendency: "I am afraid of (for) you, lest I have bestowed upon you
labor in vain.". . . Paul wondered what was wrong with their
religious knowledge and experience, that they should have become so zealous
for the observance of days. --J. G. Vos (minister, Reformed Presbyterian
Church of North America), "The Observance of Days" in Blue Banner
Faith and Life (1947).
Christmas, Good Friday, and Easter are Romish sacred days. By this
we mean that they have their source in Roman Catholic tradition, rather
than in Scripture. . . . [T]here have been times in the history
of the Reformed churches when the truth on the subject of sacred days
received reverent attention. Already, before John Calvin arrived in
Geneva at the time of the great Reformation, the observance of Romish
sacred days had been discontinued there. This had been done under
the leadership of Guillaume Farel and Peter Viret. But Calvin was
in hearty agreement. It is well known that when these traditional
days came along on the calendar, Calvin did not pay the slightest
attention to them. He just went right on with his exposition of whatever
book of the Bible he happened to be expounding. The Reformers, Knox
and Zwingli, agreed with Calvin. So did the entire Reformed church
of Scotland and Holland. At the Synod of Dort in 1574 it was agreed
that the weekly Sabbath alone should be observed, and that the observance
of all other days should be discouraged. This faithful Biblical practice
was later compromised. But that does not change the fact that the
Reformed churches originally stood for the biblical principle. The
original stand of the Reformed churches was Scriptural. That is the
important thing. --G. I. Williamson (minister, Orthodox Presbyterian
Church), On the Observance of Sacred Days (n.d.).
The Regulative Principle of Worship
"...which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart."
"...God here cuts off from men every occasion for making evasions,
since he condemns by this one phrase, "I have not commanded them,"
whatever the Jews devised. There is then no other argument needed
to condemn superstitions, than that they are not commanded by God:
for when men allow themselves to worship God according to their own
fancies, and attend not to his commands, they pervert true religion.
And if this principle was adopted by the Papists, all those fictitious
modes of worship, in which they absurdly exercise themselves, would
fall to the ground. It is indeed a horrible thing for the Papists
to seek to discharge their duties towards God by performing their
own superstitions. There is an immense number of them, as it is well
known, and as it manifestly appears. Were they to admit this principle,
that we cannot rightly worship God except by obeying his word, they
would be delivered from their deep abyss of error. The Prophet's words
then are very important, when he says, that God had commanded no such
thing, and that it never came to his mind; as though he had said, that men
assume too much wisdom, when they devise what he never
required, nay, what he never knew."
--John Calvin, Commentary on Jeremiah 7:31
dave_l — 2016-10-27T07:26:11-04:00 — #4
“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” (1 Timothy 1:9–10)
“For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.” (Romans 2:28–29)
“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” (Galatians 2:16)
“Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.” (Galatians 5:1–6)
hamilton_ramos — 2016-10-27T11:53:56-04:00 — #5
I think I understand your concern for doing as God has prescribed.
Thanks to persons like you I have been forced to consider the subject closely, as Jesus clearly rebukes (and even rejects) believers for being "lawless" Matthew 7:23.
I was reading an interesting article that clearly expounds key underlying principles that many law proposers seem to not notice:
One of the gains of biblical theology in preaching is that it helps us to appreciate the inner structure of the apostolic testimony and its relationship to Christian living.
In Pauline theological terms we are concerned with the relationship of sanctification to justification. In broader biblical-theological terms we are concerned with the relationship of law to grace.
If eternal life is not the reward for meritorious living but the gift of grace, then all ethical imperatives are given as implications of the gospel and should be clearly seen as such.
The alternative is to preach law and to leave the impression that the essence of Christianity is what we do rather than what God has done. Legalism easily creeps in even when we think we have avoided it.
The preacher may well understand the relationship of law and grace, but the structure of the sermon program may undermine it in the thinking of many in the congregation.
A fundamental biblical-theological fact of the law-grace relationship is that the giving of the law to Moses on Sinai came after the mighty act of redemption in the Exodus.
The Song of Moses in Exodus 15 celebrates the victory of God over the enemy, which was a demonstration of God’s steadfast love or covenant faithfulness.
The redeemed people of God are sustained in the desert by manna, quails, and water as a divine provision (Exod. 16–17). Then, when they reach Sinai, God reminds them, “how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself” (Exod. 19:3–4).
The giving of the law is prefaced by the statement that Yahweh is their God who has already saved them.
Goldsworthy, G. (2000). Preaching the Whole Bible as Christian Scripture: The Application of Biblical Theology to Expository Preaching (pp. 59–60). Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.
Just as you post important valid information that needs to be taken into account, I hope that you also read and understand the other side of the coin so to speak from where many of us understand the law / Gospel relation.
Peace and grace.
bill_coley — 2016-10-27T14:27:24-04:00 — #6
Will, I believe the answer to the question you pose in this thread's title is no, Torah obedience is not a salvation issue. HOWEVER, that’s no thanks to Jesus, who frequently, in my view, frames personal conduct as the primary indicator of a person’s destiny (a.k.a. his or her entrance into the Kingdom of God/Heaven). Some examples....
In Matthew 5.19 Jesus warns against ignoring any of the commandments, then in Matthew 5.21 begins the famous “You have heard... but I say...” scenarios in which the demands of the law are internalized (proscriptions against murder and adultery become proscriptions against anger and lust respectively, for example) or otherwise strengthened.
God’s willingness to forgive us depends on our willingness to forgive others. Jesus doesn’t couch this matter in eternal destiny terms, but in my view, its consequences for same are obvious.
Jesus says the parable of the wheat and weeds means those who do evil will be sent to a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth
Here, hypocrites face a similar fate.
Jesus tells a story about a master who distributes resources to three servants for their use during his absence. One of the servants fails to make satisfactory use of the resources entrusted to him, so he receives the weeping and gnashing fate.
In response to a question from an unnamed person about the number of people who will enter the Kingdom, Jesus advises people to work hard because many will try and fail to enter, prompting the master of the house tell evildoers to leave. Once again, the emphasis is on actions, not beliefs.
So, I think there’s a case to be made for Torah obedience as a salvation issue. Fortunately, though, there is an alternative view in the New Testament: grace. Paul is clear that all people sin - i.e. are all “evildoers” - but in Christ, God remedies the conduct challenge raised in the Gospels. It’s no longer works and actions that unlock the Kingdom, as Jesus repeatedly suggests, but rather faith and belief.
Because I accept God’s grace as the only ticket to eternal life, I believe Torah obedience is not a salvation issue. Now, are there levels of reward in heaven, distributed on the basis of Torah/commandment obedience? I think a case can be made for those in Scripture; but I don’t think that’s the issue you’ve raised in this thread, Will.
NOTE: Of course, there’s John 3.16 and other verses where Jesus installs belief as the cornerstone to a heavenly destiny. My point is that works righteousness is the predominant - but not the only - approach Jesus takes in the Gospels.
EDIT: Also consider Philippians 2.12-13, in which Paul merges grace and works in his command that we work out our own salvation, a phrase which the NLT translates "work hard to show the results of your salvation" via the works God is giving you the "the desire and the power" to do.
will_scholten — 2016-10-27T19:40:57-04:00 — #7
Wolfgang, Dave, Hamilton and Bill,
Thank you for your replies, but I am not seeing anything that would over ride the name of the topic.
I still see the scripture saying we can not eat passover unless we are circumcised, before you are circumcised in the flesh, your heart has to be circumcised, so how can we keep passover with Yahushua in the kingdom to come with out these 2 stipulations?
We know that all the believers kept Torah, Sabbath and the feast, all the way through the whole Bible, even Paul tells us he taught Torah on the Sabbath, and kept feast also all the way through Acts, before he died.
We have proof of Constantine, the Roman church and the early reformers telling us who changed theses things (after the scriptures were completed). The scriptures warn us about holding on to the traditions of man over YHWH'S commands.
Peter warns us the unstable people twist what Pauls says, to there own destruction.
Scripture does not contradict scripture, YHWH would not confuse us!
You all gave me a lot of information to look at.
bill_coley — 2016-10-27T20:50:31-04:00 — #8
It will help me, Will, if you define the term you employ in this thread's title. What do you mean by asking whether Torah obedience is a "salvation issue"? What is a "salvation issue"? Thanks for the extra help.
hamilton_ramos — 2016-10-27T21:13:13-04:00 — #9
I do not disagree with circumcision to those that are veiled from the Messiahship of Jesus Christ (ethnic Israel sincerely mistaken).
But for gentiles like moi, it is clear from the NT that we gentiles do not have to go through physical circumcision as a sign (even though many have it for medical reasons back then when we were born).
The requirements for gentiles are clearly depicted, and it does not involve the other legalistic duties that (veiled) Israelites have.
Modern church members (Jesus') have to comply with the requirements of the New Testament:
Receive God's good news (gospel), repent, believe, baptize Acts 2:38, receive the Holy Spirit, prepare for ministry IAW our life mission, do our part in extending the Kingdom of God.
I will put it plain and simple: We being creatures dead in our sins, were chosen by God to become adopted children of Him.
Nothing we did or do accounted for the choice God made, it is an undeserved gift (grace).
Now whenever a mutt is adopted into a royal family, the person has to learn new ways of thinking, behaving, even feeling. The adopted children is expected to become a gentleman or a lady depending on gender.
That changing to fit in with the royal culture is not what got you there in the first place. You are just someone invited to become a child of the King.
No one in their right mind would not graciously accept the indoc into the new lifestyle, as is one in a life opportunity.
Peace and grace.
dave_l — 2016-10-28T05:33:23-04:00 — #10
Will, who did God address the Ten Commandments to? “And God spake all these words, saying, I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.” (Exodus 20:1–2)
If he did not write them to any but the nation of Israel then how do they apply to anyone else today? He abolished national Israel, and the Ten Commandments, along with Abraham's circumcision on the cross. The Commandments serve only as a commentary since then. Jesus, Paul and others use them for this purpose all the time in the New Covenant.
“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.” (Luke 16:16)
will_scholten — 2016-10-28T15:22:44-04:00 — #11
Good question Bill.
"a salvation issue"
I believe would be something that determines whether we have life everlasting or not.
Do people ever come up to you and say "well that is not a salvation issue"?
I have had a lot of people tell me that.
"the one who is righteous", does not need the law /Torah, does he!He knows it and is keeping it.
"but for the lawless" if we say we are not under the law/Torah" that would mean we are lawless, right!
"and the disobedient" disobedeint to what? The law/torah?
"the unholy" are we holy or un holy
The same law applies to the alien and the native born, right!
Did Yahushua tell us He came for the lost sheep of Israel.
he set up boundaries for the peoples
according to the number of the sons of Israel. s
Jacob his allotted inheritance.**
The New International Version. (2011). (Dt 32:8–9). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
According to this YHWH"S inheritance is Israel, correct!!
9 I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit—2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised!
The New International Version. (2011). (Ro 9:1–5). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
YHWH scattered Israel, but will soon take them back from the nations, He did not abolish them either did He!
16 “The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it. 17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.
The New International Version. (2011). (Lk 16:16–17). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
You quoted 16 a) but what does the rest say?
"the good news of the kingdom is being preached" the OT is also called the "good news"
"17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law. "
Do you think the least stroke of the law is gone yet?
As I quoted to Dave above Romans 9 talks about Israel being the ones adopted in, where does scripture say the "nations"?
Also above to Dave is the Deut. quote about YHWH"S inheritance is Jacob( also known as Israel)
I know these are hard questions.
dave_l — 2016-10-28T15:48:29-04:00 — #12
Did Abraham need God to tell him not to steal or not to commit adultery? Did he not do these things because God threatened him with death if he did? Or was the promise to Abraham a bribe? Of course not, because Abraham had a regenerate heart, verified by his faith and works. But God had to threaten all the unbelievers in Israel and they only reluctantly obeyed the Law. But God got rid of them and the Law at Calvary and blessed Israel with believers only. Those who have the Law written in their hearts as Jeremiah foretold.
will_scholten — 2016-10-28T18:41:17-04:00 — #13
Some how Abram knew, whether YHWH told him or Noah taught him, BUT HE KNEW!
Abram knew adultry was wrong, and the nations did it.
If you do this, I will do this!
17 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless. 2 Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.
The New International Version. (2011). (Ge 17:1–2). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
The Call of Abram
12 The LORD had said to Abram, **“Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.
2 “I will make you into a great nation,
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,**
and you will be a blessing. i
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.
The New International Version. (2011). (Ge 12:1–3). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
What would have happened if Abram didn't go? Nothing, do this and I will do this!!
Does this mean he had the law/Torah in his heart?
dave_l — 2016-10-28T19:06:39-04:00 — #14
This is what I've been saying. Those who are Born Again have the Law (Two Great Commandments version) written in their hearts, activated to a level they cannot live a sinful life style: “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.” (1 John 3:9–11)
To a wicked heart it is a bribe. To a regenerate heart it is a promise directing Abraham to walk blamelessly. (pssst. He cannot do this without a regenerate heart and the payment for sins in Christ that only God provides). And then reap the positive benefits of so doing. It is all grace from beginning to end.
If God gave Abraham a heart to love him, why would he not go? “And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” (Deuteronomy 30:6)
will_scholten — 2016-10-28T19:21:24-04:00 — #15
But Adam and Eve were perfect before the fall, and they fell.
dave_l — 2016-10-28T19:24:43-04:00 — #16
He must not have given them the same heart..... Why did Abel love God and Cain murder him because of it?
hamilton_ramos — 2016-10-28T21:45:14-04:00 — #17
1 John 3:1
See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.
For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
Were gentiles natural children of God? Not really, so how did we become Children of God? Adoption of course.
Who is the foolish nation that God picked up the Bride of Christ from? gentiles of course.
They have made me jealous with what is no god;they have provoked me to anger with their idols.So I will make them jealous with those who are no people;I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
Peace and grace.
will_scholten — 2016-10-28T21:58:13-04:00 — #18
What does scripture tell us about the heart?
21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood.
The New International Version. (2011). (Ge 8:21). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
**9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?**
The New International Version. (2011). (Je 17:9). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
The New International Version. (2011). (Eze 36:26–27). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
9 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and flesh is to enter my sanctuary, not even the foreigners who live among the Israelites.
The New International Version. (2011). (Eze 44:9). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
**Ezekiel 44:9 puts the seal on the requirements for "foreigner," even IF they live among Israel*********************
YHWH used prophets to prophesy*****
will_scholten — 2016-10-28T22:46:52-04:00 — #19
These 2 quotes are what is prophesied below!
One Nation Under One King
15 The word of the LORD came to me: 16 “Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, ‘Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.’ Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, ‘Belonging to Joseph (that is, to Ephraim) and all the Israelites associated with him.’ 17 Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand.
18 “When your people ask you, ‘Won’t you tell us what you mean by this?’ 19 say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph—which is in Ephraim’s hand—and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah’s stick. I will make them into a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.’ **20 Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on 21 and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, z and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.
24 “ ‘My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees.** 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’ ”
The New International Version. (2011). (Eze 37:15–28). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
The 2 houses have not returned to become one nation yet, it is still to come!!
Also Ezekiel 44:9 adds light to what we have been taught(wrong).
9 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and flesh is to enter my sanctuary, not even the foreigners who live among the Israelites.
The New International Version. (2011). (Eze 44:9). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
How do we get a circumcised heart according to the scriptures?
dave_l — 2016-10-29T04:27:32-04:00 — #20
I agree with all you say about the wickedness of the human heart. And I also believe that apart from the New Birth people cannot love God or have faith that works by love. So God obviously regenerated Abel and all the faithful. He did not regenerate Cain and all who needed the Ten Commandments to threaten and bribe them into obedience.
But when the fullness of time arrived, he did away with the unbelieving portion of Israel by abolishing the things that made them members. Circumcision remaining from Abraham's time and the Ten Commandments and rituals from Moses' time.
So if we now read the Old Testament by its New Testament application and interpretation, some verses apply to a different time. But are good for commentary purposes.
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