fred — 2017-09-28T13:37:56-04:00 — #1
Aside: Everyone's doctrine has flaws.
My question: What is the minimal amount of information one must believe (faith) in order to be saved. (I don't think the source of one's faith, God or oneself, is pertinent). Also, is there anything that one believes that could nullify salvation?
A sample answer:
One must believe:
1) Christ died
2) Christ is alive
3) Christ is God
4) Mary was a virgin
5) The earth circles the sun
Salvation is nullified if one believes:
1) in evolution
2) The earth circles the sun
dave_l — 2017-09-28T14:18:44-04:00 — #2
I believe an ear for the truth stemming from the New Birth will lead to a certain uniform understanding of scripture by the whole body of Christ. Trinity, Deity of Christ, Total Depravity, etc. But at the same time, many oppose these doctrines through ignorance. But it is doubtful that any well studied opposition comes from one who has experienced the New Birth.
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-28T15:56:48-04:00 — #3
At the very least, One must believe Jesus is the savior of the world from Sin and the only door to everlasting life is through him..
See, you answer a question about Salvation, never once mentioning Jesus Christ. That is the #1 sign of those teaching opposite to scripture.
gao_lu — 2017-09-28T18:18:47-04:00 — #4
Some see salvation as...
- An event that occurs before the world began and has nothing to do with what a man believes or does.
- An event that hinges entirely on what a man believes or does and is determined after death.
- An event that occurs in some instant of time and cannot be undone when a man believes (regardless of what he does).
- An event that occurs as a process throughout life, based on what a man believes and does, that culminates in a judgment after death.
- A package that includes a lifetime (of any span), belief, what a man does, and culminates in judgment. Salvation is assured for the one who walks with God (and He knows what that means), yet the salvation package is not complete untl judgment after death.
- Something more complicated yet.
Regardless of the above, one must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
[Yes, Dave, I know you think headhunters or whatever may be saved without knowing anything about Jesus--so you don't have to tell us again, though I am sure you will anyway]
HOWEVER, that is not to say that in all cases that believing in Jesus is the only thing that is necessary. God is judge and informs us of what is necessary for salvation.
I suppose "minimal content of faith" varies according to the person and their relationship with God. Lk 12:48 informs us of this.
We cannot judge that in each other. Rom 14:4 informs us of that.
fred — 2017-09-28T18:45:50-04:00 — #5
Seems to me that faith is the belief in something. If one does not have an EXACT knowledge of the facts to be believed then one cannot be 100% sure one is saved.
You must believe in facts A, B and C to be saved. But if you believe D then that would nullify your salvation.
Sample of Reformed Perspective:
1) I have a good idea of what exactly must be believed for salvation.
2) The exact formula is not a major concern as I believe faith comes from God so I believe I must therefore have "saving faith" though I might not be able to accurately articulate the fact ... I may even have some of the facts wrong.
Free Will perspective
1) I have a good idea of what exactly must be believed for salvation.
2) I've studied the Bible and I must believe I must believe A, B and C. My salvation depends on getting this correct; after all, I am responsible for my faith. I know some smart guys. They went to seminary. Some of them have a different formula. Smart, knowledgeable men. Some of them don't believe in the requirement of B; some think D is required. Ah, I am sure I got it correct though.
fred — 2017-09-28T18:50:43-04:00 — #6
Sounds like you do not have an exact list of what must be believed (or didn't articulate it). Belief in Christ seems open ended. I think most people "believe in Christ"; Muslims do for example. Are they saved?
LOL @ "Yes, Dave, I know you think headhunters or whatever may be saved"
dave_l — 2017-09-28T19:05:26-04:00 — #7
I mentioned the Deity of Christ and the Trinity = a proper understanding of Jesus. And Total Depravity = the sin Christ redeems his people from. But I also said many are ignorant of these doctrines......obviously.
dave_l — 2017-09-28T19:07:42-04:00 — #8
You cannot have it both ways. If faith is a condition for salvation, then most never had a chance because most never heard the gospel........
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-28T19:59:47-04:00 — #9
You got it wrong. Faith cannot be defined as belief. You cannot use a synonym to define a word. Like Water cannot be defined as wet. Wet is an attribute of water, a characteristic but the definition of water is a tasteless colorless liquid.
Fsaith likewise, has an attribute of belief, which is acceptance. However faith is defined as the confidence in what's hoped for, yet bearing evidence even when unseen.
One cannot have faith without evidence, although the evidence can represent something otherwise unseen. One can have hope without evidence, but to transform into faith, confidence must be present. For a believer, faith, confidence in whats hoped for, the confidence comes from the word of God. The evidence of his word already exist even if unseen, so that which is hoped for, combined with the word, if we can accept the word, which is Christ, and put confidence in Christ, the confidence from the word for whats hoped for produces faith. With faith, nothing is impossible.
For salvation, one must first have faith in Jesus( a combination of aformentioned ingredients), which is why faith cannot come before regeneration for the word must be preached first, providing a platform, a springboard for confidence in hope for salvation based on the assured word of God that he wants to save us. However one must believe, accept God is, before they can believe what he says. What he says means little if he can do anything other then Be God, which is his word.
When hearing the word, the spirit reveals that it is truth inside the heart of the degenerate, yet he can reject, choose not to accept God is. He can choose not to accept God is his word. If he does this God will not force himself upon them, else he would not be God.
When hearing the word, and the heart is pricked by the spirit if one, first hoping a solution existed providing salvation, because upon hearing the gospel they recognized its truth as it described their degenerative state, realized if it spoke of my current state accurately, then the following of a savior must also be accurate. And they place their confidence in this savior, the same Jesus, opening up the door,the spirit will flood inside of them and a process hopefully leading to salvation can begin. Yet many will believe yet not be saved, because believing is only the start, accepting, placing confidence in him is only the start. That must not ever be placed anywhere else, must stand confidident in the profession of that faith untill the end, for he who endures, not begins, the same shall be saved.
Because it is the spirit of the Lord which first pricks the heart, as always retains all glory. For without his spirit one could never come to Christ. Yet with his sprit one could still reject truth because they love a lie more. Either way That must happen first. This is free will.
gao_lu — 2017-09-28T22:47:32-04:00 — #10
Which facts seems to be your question. I hope I answered that well.
I do not have an exact list because I don't think there is one. The list for Abraham might be different than that for Moses or Paul, a drunk in the gutter who repents, or us.
I doubt any Muslim alive thinks he or she is saved by believing in Jesus. But maybe.... No doubt there are a few more qualifications we might add, case by case.
I know a Buddhist who was told the Gospel many times. She refused. On her deathbed, some Christian family was given one hour to see her by the Buddhist family--and only one grandson at that. He shared the Gospel. She broke down, confessed her sin, believed Jesus and begged for baptism. The son, having not even a water bottle at the time, baptized her with the only thing he had--his tears. I know these people well, personally.
How much did she understand about Jesus or salvation or much of anything? Probably almost nil. Do you think she was saved?
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-29T01:46:08-04:00 — #11
Thats was beautiful. Jesus loving grace is so wonderful!My heart is overflowed, I am at a lost for words! I'm literally in tears right now! His love for us is so much, that after a lifetime of disbelief he reached out again through the tears of her grandson. O how merciful he is, his wonders are from alpha through Omega.
dave_l — 2017-09-29T05:22:03-04:00 — #12
I remember sharing the gospel and praying with a former boss while on his deathbed. A hardened beer drinking, cussing, smoking WWII Navy veteran . He could not speak and was mostly paralyzed. There was nothing he could do but lay there. I took his hand and asked him if he believed and he gave a faint nod looking me in the eye. I believe he is in heaven today.
Another time I was with an old lady during her demise. She kept mumbling "Lord help me to love and not to hate". She did this several times. And I told her to stop trying to be perfect, you cannot do it. Jesus died in your place so you would not need to be perfect. Start trusting in Jesus blood shed for you on the cross. This is what paid the price for your sins so you do not have to do something you cannot do. She looked at me with her tunnel vision eyes and I saw a great peace come over her. Again, I believe she is with the Lord today.
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-29T15:57:45-04:00 — #13
This is why Loving you matters. You are still in the body.
dave_l — 2017-09-30T07:22:10-04:00 — #14
I do not believe we speak of the same Jesus or body. For several reasons. The Jesus I follow is the second person of the Trinity. Your's is not. I believe in salvation by grace alone apart from self motivated holiness (works). Example; I know without a doubt I'm saved. You do not, but must wait to cash in your chips at the moment of death to see if you have enough. And this doesn't touch on "free will", "Pentecostalism", and other differences.
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-30T12:10:57-04:00 — #15
I believe Jesus is Lord. I believe Jesus and the father are one as we are with him. I dont need to define it on mans terms to believe what Jesus said, that is our difference. You need the doctrines to understand Gods word. I just trust his word. That is our difference. You believe you are a finished product, I look forward to growing daily that is our difference. You used past tense words to define a future event. I believe I have been saved from death in sin but remain focused on that which is to come. For that which a man hopes for is not what he has or yet why would he hope for it? That is our difference. I do not see your weakness in the faith as a reason to declare you unsaved. You believe God gave you the authority to do so to others, that is our difference. I thank Jesus, you have no authority to declare such and that I'm not weak enough to allow it to cause me to look one way or the other.
dave_l — 2017-09-30T13:47:43-04:00 — #16
So do the demons............. “When He came to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met Him two men possessed with demons, coming out of the tombs, extremely fierce, so that no one might pass by that way. Suddenly they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with You, Jesus, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”” (Matthew 8:28–29)
Idol worship is closely connected to demons. “But I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons, and not to God. I do not want you to have fellowship with demons.” (1 Corinthians 10:20) And a false Christ is an idol.
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-30T15:07:36-04:00 — #17
You dont know how dangerously close to blaspheming the Holy Ghost you come in your attack on believers. You may have already crossed that line, but they called my Lord Beelzebub, how much more shall they
Call they of his household.
dave_l — 2017-09-30T15:09:45-04:00 — #18
I am fully aware that a false Christ is no Christ at all. And unless one embraces the Trinity doctrine, they worship an idol in place of God.
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-30T15:21:48-04:00 — #19
It doesn't surprise me the development of a doctrine not founded in scripture was done so by people who can't understand simple Teachings of Jesus regarding self glorification is followed by someone who manifest characteristics which look unfamiliar to that of Christ, yet I dont love you any less.
dave_l — 2017-09-30T17:43:24-04:00 — #20
First, you must read the doctrines. And secondly, you must use scripture to refute them. This you have not done. If the ecumenical creeds are true, and all of Christendom adheres to them, then you are attacking the scriptures and the body of Christ.
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