dave_l — 2017-03-27T05:37:20-04:00 — #1
I believe we should preach the gospel to the whole world. But confusion develops around the idea of “offering the gospel”. We offer medicine to those who are sick and they accept it willingly in hopes of getting better. But this does not represent preaching the Gospel. The Gospel Preacher announces the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ for our sins. And tells the listeners “all who believe this message already have everlasting life” (John 3:36). “And if you believe, you must repent and become baptized”. Further instruction might follow about holiness as a lifestyle.
But if we offer food samples at the market, the customer must take it. We try to make it look as good as we can so they will be more interested. But Christ is not available on these terms. Preaching the Gospel tells any who believe that God already gave them everlasting life.
tyrone_howard — 2017-03-27T14:32:09-04:00 — #2
If its not like a doctor offering of medicine. Then why is it Jesus compared it to sick being in need of a physician?
dave_l — 2017-03-27T14:42:02-04:00 — #3
He was speaking of the Pharisees who do not know how wicked they are. So they think they are already saved when they are not.
tyrone_howard — 2017-03-27T14:44:42-04:00 — #4
The idea of a sick sinner is profound throughout scripture, as is the need of a healer/Physician
dave_l — 2017-03-27T14:45:56-04:00 — #5
Yes, but we do not offer salvation. We announce (preach) that whosoever believes already has eternal life.
tyrone_howard — 2017-03-27T15:14:27-04:00 — #6
So why would God save some, and leave others lost?
He created everyone and everything, why not save everything?
What made you special that you deserve salvation but someone else,same city,same town, deserves hell?
dave_l — 2017-03-27T15:24:20-04:00 — #7
God created the universe for his good pleasure. And the Church/Israel for his glory. Paul says “And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,” (Ephesians 3:9–10)
And; “What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,” (Romans 9:22–23)
So without a sinful world, we cannot grasp God's mercy, justice, Love, righteousness, or sovereignty.
If something makes us special and savable, we rob God of his glory. But since we are all from the same lump of sinners, God arbitrarily chose us for his glory.
“Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?” (Romans 9:21)
tyrone_howard — 2017-03-27T15:52:29-04:00 — #8
I believe these demonstrate predestination to which we agree; I'm not seeing where they remove free will.
This point, below, of your position uses Romans 9 to further an idea of a pre-selected people for salvation,which would automatically exclude others, but you mention Romans 9 in part,and leaving out both the events mentioned in Romans 9 and the entire message,with Audience included which could shed some insight. I would like a chance to expound.
This is actually an excerpt of Scripture of Jeremiah 18 and was apart of Paul's argument to the extent of which God can turn a vessel of dishonor into Honor. It was paraphrased because Paul's Audience in Romans, were Jews who had knowledge of the Book of Jeremiah and knew the story of the Potter and the Clay very well; he was referencing this historical event, and he did not need to quote the entire Verse,
Jeremiah 18:3-6 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying,6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
AS You see the lump to which Paul refers is not intent to mean two separate persons,but one lump to which God can either Make honorable, dishonorable, and can save one made dishonorable, and make him honorable as apart of his plan for Salvation through Jesus Christ makes readily available to those who would ACCEPT/RECEIVE his offer .
This is apart of a larger point; The entirety of Romans 9 is that he can make both vessels, and has the power to show both mercy and wrath; but also has the power of salvation on those who would otherwise receive Wrath and that this salvation is obtainable through the acceptance of Christ Jesus,where those who were once not his people(vessels of wrath) could now be called his people:You can't stop at 9:23, but must finish the writing.
Romans 9:26 “And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.”
dave_l — 2017-03-27T16:17:43-04:00 — #9
“Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant [Greek = slave] of sin.” (John 8:34)
“It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.” (Romans 9:12–16)
tyrone_howard — 2017-03-27T17:07:08-04:00 — #10
This was actually a complete thought which read
Now in response to your next verse
This isn't the removal of free Will; its the explanation of those who think they have eternal life in spite of Sin.
This is expounded even more in 1 John 3.
1 John 3:9-14 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
This too has nothing to do with Salvation,or the offering/receiving there of. This is an example of God's predestination before the children are out of the womb,as to who would serve the other; a Great example of Men's traditions frustrated by God's Will.Jacob and Essau had Free Will in regards to salvation, when Jesus would descend into Abraham's Bosom and those who believed on God's Son, Jesus Christ would receive salvation.. This is an example of you could be born a King and another a Peasant, and it had nothing to do with your works but God's Will for your life. You would have free will to denounce your kingdom after birth, a Peasant could Marry a Queen and become a King. God's will does not remove Men's Free Will.
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-03-28T01:01:09-04:00 — #11
Has anyone claimed that they offer salvation ??????
The topic is about "offering the gospel" equals/ is synonymous to "announcing/preaching the gospel". God is offering salvation in the gospel ...
When the sinner (the sick) accepts the gospel and believes it (the sick accepts the medicine), salvation (healing) begins to take place. When the sinner refuses and rejects, no salvation takes place.
[quote="Dave_L, post:5, topic:2565" We announce (preach) that whosoever believes already has eternal life.[/quote]
Why announce what someone believes already ?? How can someone believe without first having heard? Cp. Rom 10:9-17 !!!
dave_l — 2017-03-28T04:42:02-04:00 — #12
All are sinners by nature and die because of it “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 6:23) And all are slaves of sin “Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave of sin.” (John 8:34) And after experiencing salvation, Christians cannot habitually live in sin “Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God.” (1 John 3:9)
So where is "free will"?
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-03-28T08:17:26-04:00 — #13
For example, in John 3:16, in Rom 10:9,10ff ....
dave_l — 2017-03-28T08:38:04-04:00 — #14
The will must be born again and freed from the slavery of sin before any can believe, based on experiencing Christ in their heart, or before they can discern and speak spiritual truth. “But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to be children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood, or of the will of the flesh, or of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:12–13)
“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:” (Romans 8:16)
tyrone_howard — 2017-03-28T12:40:41-04:00 — #15
First You must understand what Took Place at the Cross.
There are multiple disciples, apostles in the New Testament which testified that the Sin Nature of Man while confined in the flesh, still Sinned. Its the Seperation of Flesh and Spirit,that this scripture is talking about. Your Spirit and Flesh and Soul were One, Existing in the Perfect Triune likeness of God. Once Adam Sinned You had a sinful Nature which corrupted your Spirit and Soul and therefore eternal separation from God was the only alternative; This is the Wage of Sin.
This is made clear with the Saints of Old Testament dwelling place being in Abraham Bosom in the Heart of the Earth instead of with God. Even though their flesh had long perished, the sin was infused in their Spirit(Mind) and Soul and it could not be near the Father.
Jesus Born of a Virgin, ensured that no Human Blood would be in Jesus, for it is not until the Sperm interacts with the Egg, that blood and Life begin to develop in the embryo. During Pregnancy none of the Woman Blood interacts with the fetus Blood.We Know the Spirit is in the Blood.
This is the God-Man. Sinful Flesh + God Blood.
By walking in the Flesh of Sin, and Never Sinning, he condemned Sin to The Flesh, and separated the Sin From the Rest of the Human Triune.
The Crucifixion would be presented as the Punishment for Man's Sin's washing the Soul OF Man in the Blood of the Lamb, making possible the Redemption of Man's Soul from Eternal Death.
The Word, Jesus Christ, God divided the Soul and Spirit, so that the Spirit of Sin(The Mind of Satan) you could be free from for all Spirits even Satan are subject to the Word of God and both spirits Can Not dwell together. When that spirit left it was replaced with the Spirit of Christ, aka The Holy Ghost, aka the Mind of God man still exist in a Triune Likeness of God.... The Physical Sin condemned to the Flesh. Also referred to as the Sin Nature of Man. The Spirit of Sin,Satan, No Longer your Master.
The Sin Nature of Man However, still contained Sin but being confined to the flesh by Jesus living perfectly and Never sinning yet being punished for Sin on the Cross. This is why we receive a glorified body, incorruptible, immortal after The physical death in this Life; because we have always been created to exist in the Likeness of God, the Triune.
With The Holy Ghost, you can't keep on sinning because you desire the things of God; Doesn't mean you will never Sin again,but you are not bound by Sin, and therefore place the flesh under subjection through fasting prayer and the Word of God. When you do Sin, its not You that Sins, for you are reborn in the spirit (Mind and Soul) but the flesh which Sins; this was Paul's confession when he spoke of wanting to do Good,but doing evil but if he desires to do Good, Which can only be the spirit of God then when you fall, its the Flesh which falls not you.
Free Will never leaves. You don't have the power to in an instance, redeem, separate, conjoin, remake, rebirth which is why its not you which saves you. Only God has this power. And He offers to do this for you, IF you will accept. If you open the door, If you receive this gift, he will do it for you, nevertheless there is a YOU involved.
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-03-28T13:47:53-04:00 — #16
Where in Scripture are we told that God has blood? Jesus himself declared rather plainly that God is SPIRIT :.. and a SPIRIT being by definition has no blood.
There is also no such a being as a "God-man" or "man-God" mentioned in Scripture ... such beings exist in ancient mythologies, but NOT in the Biblical Scriptures.
Heb 2 should be sufficient to show that your idea of a "God-blood" contradicts Scripture ... because Heb 2:14 clearly states that Jesus partook of flesh and blood as all human beings do:
Hebr 2,14 (AV)
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
dave_l — 2017-03-28T14:24:55-04:00 — #17
If Jesus says people are Slaves of sin, how can they stop sinning? “Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave of sin.” (John 8:34)
“There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.” (Romans 3:11)
“For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.” (Luke 19:10)
tyrone_howard — 2017-03-28T15:08:43-04:00 — #18
First, God does Not Have Blood. The Son Of God does;
We know the blood of a Human or animals could not suffice to cleanse us from all our Sins;
Levitivus 17:11 Explains the purpose of blood;
Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
We Know That in a fetus, the blood begins in the embryo from the entrance of the Sperm into the Egg;
In 1559, a man named Realdus Columbus called it placenta after the Latin word for “circular cake.” It makes us all possible.
The placenta is part of the communication between the fetus and the expectant mother. Most people tend to think of this communication as the route of exchange where the mother’s blood and the fetus’s blood mix and exchange, but this is a myth. The fetal blood and maternal blood do not mix. In fact, if this were to be the case, there would be such immunological protest from the mother that she would soon make enough antibodies to the baby’s blood to destroy the pregnancy.(Ref., Williams Obstetrics, 18th edition.)
We Know It Was the Holy Ghost, which provided the life for Jesus Christ and Not Joseph, so the Blood of the Child was of the Holy Ghost. Why do you think Jesus was called the begotten of the Father?
His Blood has power, cleansing, healing, deliverance.
Luke 1:35 - And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
The Title God Man Never shows up but the idea is profound. Jesus by calling himself the Son of God made himself equal to God.
1 John 4:15 “Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
Luke 22:70 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.
1 John 5:20 - And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Yes; God's Being does not contain Blood; even the resurrected Jesus Body contained No Blood;
But while Jesus was on earth he hadboth flesh and blood, but since we understand his conception we know his blood was not human, yet it did still run out of him on the Cross;