bkmitchell — 2017-08-05T10:37:56-04:00 — #1
According, to how you understand the Bible and/or theology:
Once a person has been saved can he or she fall away permanently as losing salvation?
dave_l — 2017-08-05T14:51:11-04:00 — #2
I think a lot of the confusion over "once saved always saved" stems from the "offering of the gospel" as opposed to "preaching the gospel". And even the Calvinists who embrace the perseverance of the saints "offer the gospel" which makes salvation depend on the human will. So if salvation depends on the human will, how can any be saved if they do not will it? I believe salvation happens before the sinner can will any good, and the gospel only tells them about it.
gao_lu — 2017-08-05T18:38:06-04:00 — #3
I think this is a "bad question" because it is based on unlikely presuppositions-questioning/limiting the character and attributes of God. It is a little like asking, "Can God make a rock so big He can't pick it up?"
God can make any size rock He wants and He can pick it up if He wants. The important thing is God will do the loving, righteous just thing. God can save a man and keep a man or does something else with a man--in the end, He will do with the man what is loving, righteous and just.
We are inclined, with our theologies, to create boxes. We put God in our box and climb in with HIm inside our box safely where we say He resides. Trouble is we soon find ourself alone in the box and discover that God has somehow escaped! Then, curiously, we point out other people sitting alone in their boxes and shrill at them how God has escaped their boxes.
We will likely circle this topic like anxious wagons around a campfire when the people hear distant warwhoops, because what does "saved" mean? Past tense? Present? From our theological position or from God's perspective?
If a person is "saved," past tense, from the future perspective of Heaven, then obviously they can't get unsaved or they were never saved in the first place. If we say a person is saved and then lost, then we could argue they were never really saved or they wouldn't now not be saved. We can argue that 1 Jn has more than a dozen "conditions" for continuing to be saved and whether or not the man has freedom to be responsible (having capacity for authentic sin, will, hope, faith, love) or whether God just overwhelms Him and we just pretend that man has capacity for authentic sin, will, hope, faith, love. We can argue....probably forever. We have plenty of Scripture passage to support any point of view: God can make a really big rock, God can pick it up, God can save a man, God can turn a man over to a reprobate mind.
But, like the God making a rock so big He can't pick it up question...the problem with the question is that it calls into doubt the character and attributes of God--somehow attempting to limit God or poke Him into our finite-minded theological zoo box where we can poke at Him, watch Him growl, but He can't escape. We are looking for ways to limit God. We try to pin God down with our human-perspective legalese. That is foolish. God is God and will do the thing that is loving, righteous and just. God can save a man and God can punish a man and He will do the loving, righteous, just thing.
tyrone_howard — 2017-08-05T22:12:57-04:00 — #4
You aren't saved untill you die and make it to heaven.
Judas was a disciple with an apostles ministry in him yet at the end he went to the place set for him...
Once saves always saved isnt biblical or God being married to the backsliders would be null and void...
dave_l — 2017-08-06T06:51:15-04:00 — #5
He who believes in the Son has eternal life. He who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. John 3:36 (MEV)
dave_l — 2017-08-06T07:40:44-04:00 — #6
The order of conversion. I put this together to show how I understand that some are lost while others are not.
The free will model;
gospel offered at a natural level the flesh understands, flesh can accept the terms and repent, upon repentance (fill in the blank with any condition to meet) the new birth happens and struggles against the flesh begin, but the flesh remains stronger, and can terminate new birth at will, salvation progresses by willing obedience, but is not certain until death.
Totally depraved model;
The New Birth takes place supernaturally. flesh crippled by the new and more powerful spiritual nature, gospel announced unconditionally to all, it bears witness in the hearts of those born again, this produces faith and the fullness of the Spirit through repentance, holiness results as defined in scripture.
will_scholten — 2017-08-06T11:29:45-04:00 — #7
I would say no.
YHWH is way smarter than any man.
The question has to be answered , when do you receive your reward?
Man does not receive his reward until judgement day, then YHWH will look at ALL your works to see if you are a tare (are burned) or the wheat (eternal life).
23 But I do it all because of the rewards promised by the Good News, so that I may share in them along with the others who come to trust. 24 Don’t you know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one wins the prize? So then, run to win! 25 Now every athlete in training submits himself to strict discipline, and he does it just to win a laurel wreath that will soon wither away. But we do it to win a crown that will last forever. 26 Accordingly, I don’t run aimlessly but straight for the finish line; I don’t shadow-box but try to make every punch count. 27 I treat my body hard and make it my slave so that, after proclaiming the Good News to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
Stern, D. H. (1998). Complete Jewish Bible: an English version of the Tanakh (Old Testament) and B’rit Hadashah (New Testament) (1st ed., 1 Co 9:23–27). Clarksville, MD: Jewish New Testament Publications.
We need to start teaching, when we die, we are dead, our soul DOES NOT go to heaven to be with YHWH!
If that were the case, there would have to be more than one judgement.
People who use the thief on the cross as proof, have to realize, Yahusha was not in heaven the day He said Today you will be with me in paradise, remember He went to the center of the earth, even descended to Hell. Yahusha did tell him, that he would go to paradise, just it has not happened yet.
Scripture tells us, YHWH is the Elohim of the LIVING, not the dead!! All will rise and their just reward, on the "last great day"!!
All will be judged with the same rod, and the same law/Torah!!
Prosperity After Turning to the LORD
30 When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the LORD your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the LORD your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the LORD your God will restore your fortunes x and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the LORD your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors. 6 The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. 7 The LORD your God will put all these curses on your enemies who hate and persecute you. 8 You will again obey the LORD and follow all his commands I am giving you today. 9 Then the LORD your God will make you most prosperous in all the work of your hands and in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your land. The LORD will again delight in you and make you prosperous, just as he delighted in your ancestors, 10 if you obey the LORD your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
The Offer of Life or Death
11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
The New International Version. (2011). (Dt 30:1–20). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Yahusha told us not not the smallest stroke or mark would be removed from the Torah until heaven and earth pass away!!
dave_l — 2017-08-06T11:48:28-04:00 — #8
Not quite...........He said "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one dot or one mark will pass from the law until all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:18 (MEV)
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets [before fulfilling them]. I have not come to abolish, but to fulfill. Matthew 5:17 (MEV)
will_scholten — 2017-08-06T15:09:55-04:00 — #9
Is heaven and earth still here? Yes! -then all is not fulfilled
dave_l — 2017-08-06T18:31:16-04:00 — #10
But the world could not end, as it is supposed to one day, had Jesus not fulfilled the Law. He can return and destroy the universe at any time now.
will_scholten — 2017-08-06T19:41:33-04:00 — #11
Why would the law have to be done away with, in order for Yahusha to return?
I think this is what Yahusha was referring to in Matt. 5:18.
dave_l — 2017-08-07T07:31:06-04:00 — #12
Because heaven and earth could not pass until Jesus fulfilled the Law.
If so, why the destruction of Jerusalem by God's hand in 70AD?
tyrone_howard — 2017-08-07T11:42:01-04:00 — #13
We need to stop teaching about God, as limited by our understanding of time. Judgment has already happened, Is happening, yet will Happen.
Heaven is not our final resting place, the New World Is. Heaven is our intermediate resting place untill all is fulfilled, the replacement for abraham's Bosom in the pits of Hell.... But there will be a Judgement that those which are Christ, will not participate in, resulting in the second Death. and life everlasting on the New Earth.
will_scholten — 2017-08-07T16:55:03-04:00 — #14
The Judgment of the Dead
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
The New International Version. (2011). (Re 20:11–15). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Rev. 20 tells us ALL the dead will rise and be judged according to what they have done
The End Times
12 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise r will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.u 4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”
5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?”
7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. d When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”
8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?”
9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.
11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”
Verse 13; Daniel, you will rest, then, at the end, you will rise up, to receive your allotted inheritance.
No body receives there inheritance till the "great last day"!!
There are more verses to, I can add later!!!
The New International Version. (2011). (Da 12:1–Ho). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
will_scholten — 2017-08-07T17:04:26-04:00 — #15
We interpret this a lot different from each other!!
18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
The New International Version. (2011). (Mt 5:18–20). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
So what are verses 19-20 talking about???
dave_l — 2017-08-08T07:20:53-04:00 — #16
I do not think I'm interpreting the verse. Jesus says the earth and heaven cannot pass away, which it is supposed to do, until he fulfills the Law and the prophets. He did this, and now he can return any day.
19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
The New International Version. (2011). (Mt 5:18–20). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
So what are verses 19-20 talking about???
Jesus taught while under the Law. He and the disciples kept the Law. But upon his death, the New Covenant replaced the Law, having been fulfilled perfectly by Jesus. The disciples became the first members of Israel under the New Covenant. And the unbelieving physical Jews eventually all died off.
tyrone_howard — 2017-08-08T10:19:04-04:00 — #17
Correct. But Those who Believe in Jesus while Alive, will not perish but have eternal life. Those who die now, don't die but sleep so that they can shed mortality and corruptible flesh and put on immortality and incorruptible flesh. (This is the First Death)
will_scholten — 2017-08-08T16:46:41-04:00 — #18
Sorry Dave, but to me you are reading into it backwards!!
This says until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke of a pen will disappear from the law. Heaven and earth pass away first, verses 19-20, will agree with this!!!!
Where does scripture tell us, this happens after the first death?
Genesis 3:2-5 tell us "YHWH warns, you will surely die, the devil, says you will not die!
2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ”
4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
The New International Version. (2011). (Ge 3:2–5). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Man is mortal, after judgement the righteous will be immortal
dave_l — 2017-08-09T07:22:42-04:00 — #19
The word "until" is the key to understanding the passage. ἕως
① to denote the end of a period of time, till, until.
ⓐ as conjunction
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 422). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one dot or one mark will pass from the law until all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:17–18
Part of the problem is knowing what God means and not just what he says. This is the biggest stumbling block dividing the church today. The verses might say thus and thus, but how do they fit with the big picture?
tyrone_howard — 2017-08-09T14:27:36-04:00 — #20
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
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