gao_lu — 2017-08-07T19:13:38-04:00 — #1
1. Do you think there is an order to salvation?
2. If so, what it is?
3. Is salvation a "package?" If so what is in the package?
My own view is that the Ordo salutis is inventing an order that probably does not exist to prop up a doctrine (whether or not that doctrine is right or wrong). Regardless of the forum conclusion on Ordo salutis, I have to ponder how often I invent "orders" or other over-systematized theology in ways I am unaware.
Arminian view (from a non-Arminian)
justin_gatlin — 2017-08-07T19:54:37-04:00 — #2
Those whom He foreknew
He did also predestinate [to glorification]
Conviction - God reveals both Himself and our need for a Saviour
Faith - We, by God's grace, place our trust in Him
Justification/Adoption/Regeneration/Positional Sanctification - We are made new creatures in Christ, born into the Kingdom by the Spirit of God
Sanctification - By the chastening of the Father, we are conformed to the image of Christ.
Glorification - The Son returns and transforms our bodies to be like His glorious body.
dave_l — 2017-08-08T07:37:59-04:00 — #3
I do not think God thinks and acts in time. He is eternal and time is created. So I believe everything that ever was, is or will be happened at once upon creation. And falls out in time according to secondary causes, or chain reactions. Even our choices are the results of preceding secondary causes, which are effects of God the first cause.
But from our stand point, we try to understand and define what we see, in this case, by the "order of salvation".
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-08-08T08:48:41-04:00 — #4
what is meant with "order to salvation" ? perhaps what is indicated in Acts 2:21 ( And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.) => call on the name of the Lord => shall be saved?
What about Acts 16:31 (And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.) => believe on the Lord Jesus Christ => shalt be saved ?
What about Rom 10:9,13 (9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. ... 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.) => confess the Lord Jesus and believe that God raised him from the dead => thou shalt be saved ?
dave_l — 2017-08-08T09:49:58-04:00 — #5
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48 (KJV 1900)
This verse shows an order of events. What lies beneath "whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved"? What causes them to do this?
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-08-08T09:56:49-04:00 — #6
hearing the word concerning the Lord ... cp Rom 10:14-17
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed ? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard ? and how shall they hear without a preacher ?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent ? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
tyrone_howard — 2017-08-08T09:58:06-04:00 — #7
I don't think there is a defined order - for Chronological Purposes, because Salvation is Spiritual, and the Spirit Realm doesn't operate within the bounds of Time. My wife was a child walking down the Isle of a Ministers Wedding as the Flower Girl. The Man of God being Married, lifted his hands up and praised God, he explained because he Had a Vision/Visitation from My Wife in the Spirit but she was an adult and she was ministering unto him. This occurred at the same time my wife who then is 4 years old was walking down the isle, with one shoe on because she'd just come out of it a few steps earlier....
I believe there is One door, but a couple ways belief can develop/occur within a believer and all are found in the Scripture.
There are those who are pre-ordained to salvation: I believe there are some, whom God Foreknew, not born of the Will of Man but of the Will of God, who no matter how hard you try you couldn't get to hell, because something inside you, has believed in Jesus before you even knew how to speak. Through all wrong-doings it was only a matter of time before your reconized you were In the world but not Of the World.
There are those who are "lost" born of the will of Man, and the Gospel must be brought to them to awaken their Faith. (Faith comes by hearing the Word of God) - Some will open the door when they hear Jesus knocking, others will choose not to and inherit eternal damnation because they wont confess they are blind to receive salvation. Some of these who open the door will chose a life of servitude others will not but the mustard seed planted will cause them to cry out to Jesus in the last moments of their life, entrusting their soul unto Jesus Hands. I believe the latter are the biggest risk, because for those who know much, much is required and it is not possible to be saved at the last breath. There are those however, never taught to whom Jesus will save from the flames at the last moment of their earthly existence. For Example, I could not run this risk (nor would I want to) because I know loving Jesus includes keeping his commandments. My father however grew up baptist and believed once saved always saved. He endured a hard life of drinking alcohol and smoking cigarettes but God put him in a place during the last weeks of his life, he couldn't smoke, he couldn't drink he couldn't cheat on my mother anymore. It was at that time the Spirit Led me to pray the prayer of salvation/faith with my father, he confessed fro the first time that I'd ever heard that he was saved. And died a day or so later. I know he made it. I had a friend who had an asthma attack who had began coming to church. Was still smoking cigarettes and weed. He had been saved but was struggling with believing Jesus for Deliverance. He had an asthma attack but called on Jesus at the last second and a ministering spirit confirmed to my pastor in both scenarios they had made it home.
There are those who are preordained to eternal destruction as vessels of wrath which God created through much anguish in the spirit.
In summation we do not know the mind of God, but should seek out our OWN soul saving Salvation and not try to damn others because they did not come into belief the way we did. For all pathways are by Grace, Mercy and Love of Jesus Christ. He is the Door. None who call on him, or come to him will he cast out.
dave_l — 2017-08-08T09:59:30-04:00 — #8
What if people never hear the Gospel? Or if they hear a false Gospel and react to it? What did Peter mean by this? Then Peter began to speak, saying, “Truthfully, I perceive that God is no respecter of persons. But in every nation he who fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. Acts 10:34–35 (MEV)
justin_gatlin — 2017-08-08T10:19:07-04:00 — #9
In context, He clearly meant that Jews and Gentiles both equally have access to God through the gospel. I note also that, in your ordo, it ought to be "Whoever is accepted of Him will fear God and work righteousness."
dave_l — 2017-08-08T10:34:14-04:00 — #10
"Access" suggests that only the self righteous save themselves. I think the passage means some beyond the reach of the gospel, might be among the elect and live a holy lifestyle apart from the gospel. I believe some Muslims or cult members might be born again and would trust in Christ given the chance.