justin_gatlin — 2017-10-05T18:18:39-04:00 — #1
Where does the idea that the church began on Pentecost come from? Jesus says in Matthew 16 that he would build his church (future tense), but the word for build (οἰκοδομέω) is regularly used for building up something already in existence, most relevantly, that is the way it is used every other time it refers to a church.
Since "ekklesia" really just means assembly, why not view the church as beginning when Jesus first called his disciples, and empowered on Pentecost?
gao_lu — 2017-10-05T20:06:56-04:00 — #2
I taught on "The Church" at a Bible school recently in America and was a bit surprised to have a couple pastors come up to me and quietly suggest I be careful of a few quagmires because the range of thinking among students was fairly broad. I concluded we cannot make too much of Hebrew and Greek and Latin terms, except to say that the use of ἐκκλησία for Israel in the LXX says something about the relationship of terms in the minds of the people in the time of Christ who used those terms. More important I think is the term κοινωνίᾳ and the new thing that happened after Pentecost.
Although I spent a week on the topic of the church, here is a concise version on this topic.
- The Church was in the mind of God in eternity past - Eph 3:10-11 (…The church was…the eternal purpose in Jesus…)
- The Shadow (conception) of the Church began at least as far back as Israel…the assembly in the wilderness Acts 7:38
- The Church Received the Breath of Life on Pentecost by the Holy Spirit
1. Mt 16:18 Jesus said, “I will build my church” - something future –but the seed was there!
2. Like a pregnant woman–something is going to happen! –one day a baby is going to be born!
3. Church after Pentecost is distinct with 1) Christ as Head, 2) spiritual gifts
I think (cautiously) that we can say The Church is the entire body of those who belong to God throughout the ages. If so, then we might also say God has worked differently with the Church at different times--such as Noahic period, Abrahamic period, Mosaic period (Israel), and modern church period (post Pentecost). Something vast and new certainly happened at Pentecost and thereafter, something grand and holy, that we call The Church.
will_scholten — 2017-10-05T20:59:17-04:00 — #3
Yes, I agree!!
One Nation Under One King
15 The word of the LORD came to me: 16 “Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, ‘Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.’ Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, ‘Belonging to Joseph (that is, to Ephraim) and all the Israelites associated with him.’ 17 Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand.
18 “When your people ask you, ‘Won’t you tell us what you mean by this?’ 19 say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph—which is in Ephraim’s hand—and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah’s stick. I will make them into a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.’ 20 Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on 21 and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, z and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.
24 “ ‘My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’ ”
The New International Version. (2011). (Eze 37:15–28). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
The 2 houses will be rebuilt into one nation again!!!
dave_l — 2017-10-06T04:35:44-04:00 — #4
Church = assembly or congregation. Israel called Congregation of the Lord over 300 times in OT. Technically, Job and his friends held a church when they visited and prayed. In the NT, God removed all of the unbelievers from the church and it continued as it does today as the invisible body of Christ. It becomes visible whenever two or more meet in Jesus' name. And then returns to its invisible state. God uses the visible institutional churches, although not scriptural, to protect and nurture the body of Christ (the church proper) as he used the visible institutional church in OT times to fend for the elect. The Church = the body of Christ and the Kingdom of God/heaven.
will_scholten — 2017-10-07T18:50:57-04:00 — #5
No, it does not!
Ekklesia does not mean "church" that is man's doing.
I think this link does a good job of explaining stuff!
tyrone_howard — 2017-10-07T19:27:21-04:00 — #6
When did an assembly of God, not exist in history?
tyrone_howard — 2017-10-07T19:34:25-04:00 — #7
Great read. For a number of reasons. I wish some of us could gather for bible study sometime because it can be difficult to address everything by responding online and there is much I would love to talk about. Great reading though.
I especially like the part, be called of yourselves out of your self will. This is where the Holy Ghost dwells in that assembly
will_scholten — 2017-10-07T21:46:20-04:00 — #8
"Called out ones" ,hit me, do you think that would also mean "set apart".
I think both cases would be "called out" of the world's way of thinking!
tyrone_howard — 2017-10-07T23:53:46-04:00 — #9
I do think this. They would be one and the same Also makes sense Christ coming back for assembly, set apart ones without spot or blemish
bkmitchell — 2017-10-08T01:11:03-04:00 — #10
And, thanks for posting the following:
I think the above is a sound conclusion to have been made. And, I think it is interesting to note that at least on this issue translators all across the board seem to agree and refrain from using the English theological term/loaded jargon 'church' in the Hebrew Bible/OT.
dave_l — 2017-10-08T07:11:17-04:00 — #11
“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” (Matthew 16:18)
"Church" = ἐκκλησία, ας, ἡ (ἐκ + καλέω; Eur., Hdt.+)
① a regularly summoned legislative body, assembly,
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 303). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
will_scholten — 2017-10-08T07:29:55-04:00 — #12
Did you look up what "church" is to get that answer?
The reason I ask is I don't see "church" listed, from the Greek word
This tool was free from Logos years ago, did you get this?
It can help broaden our search of Greek word meanings, because it uses context from old secular written books to.
I find it very helpful when the word is only used a couple of times in scripture. ( no am not saying ekklesia is only used a few times) but it is still a very good tool!!
dave_l — 2017-10-08T07:35:11-04:00 — #13
This is the definition of the word Jesus used for his church.
You need to recommend this tool to the guys writing the greek dictionaries. I'm sure they can use some "correcting" from time to time.
bkmitchell — 2017-10-08T07:36:25-04:00 — #14
Hey Will Scholten,
Here is a fuller, but yet still abridged quotation from a common lexicon:
ἐκκλησία, ας, ἡ (ἐκ + καλέω; Eur., Hdt.+)
① a regularly summoned legislative body, assembly, as gener. understood in the Gr-Rom. world (Jos., Ant. 12, 164; 19, 332, Vi. 268) Ac 19:39 (on ‘[regular] statutory assembly’, s. ἔννομος and IBM III/2, p. 141. The term ἐννόμη ἐ. here contrasts w. the usage vss. 32 and 40, in which ἐ. denotes simply ‘a gathering’; s. 2 below. On the ἐ. in Ephesus cp. CIG III, 325; IBM III/1, 481, 340; on the ἐ. in the theater there s. the last-named ins ln. 395; OGI 480, 9).—Pauly-W. V/2, 1905, 2163–2200; RAC IV 905–21 (lit.).
② a casual gathering of people, an assemblage, gathering (cp. 1 Km 19:20; 1 Macc 3:13; Sir 26:5) Ac 19:32, 40.
③ people with shared belief, community, congregation (for common identity, cp. the community of Pythagoras [Hermippus in Diog. L. 8, 41]. Remarkably, in Himerius, Or. 39 [Or. 5], 5 Orpheus forms for himself τὴν ἐκκλησίαν, a group of wild animals, who listen to him, in the Thracian mountains where there are no people), in our lit. of common interest in the God of Israel.
ⓐ of OT Israelites assembly, congregation (Dt 31:30; Judg 20:2; 1 Km 17:47; 3 Km 8:14; PsSol 10:6; TestJob 32:8 τῆς εὐώδους ἐ.; Philo; Jos., Ant. 4, 309; Diod S 40, 3, 6) Hb 2:12 (Ps 21:23); e.g. to hear the law (Dt 4:10; 9:10; 18:16) Ac 7:38.
ⓑ of Christians in a specific place or area (the term ἐ. apparently became popular among Christians in Greek-speaking areas for chiefly two reasons: to affirm continuity with Israel through use of a term found in Gk. translations of the Hebrew Scriptures, and to allay any suspicion, esp. in political circles, that Christians were a disorderly group).
Arndt, William et al. A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature 2000 : 303. Print.
bkmitchell — 2017-10-08T07:43:11-04:00 — #15
ἐκκλησία,-ας N1F 9-45-2-24-23=103
Dt 4,10; 9,10; 18,16; 23,2.3
assembly (in political sense) Jdt 6,16; assembly of people Sir 26,5; alternating with συναγωγή, stereotypical rendition of קהל: assembly of the Israelites Dt 4,10
ἐκκλησία τῆς ἀποικίας assembly of the returned exiles Ezr 10,8; ἐκκλησία Ισραηλ t**he cultic assembly of the people of Israel** 2 Chr 6,3; ἐκκλησία κυρίου the assembly of the Lord Dt 23,2; ἐκκλησία πονηρευομένων assembly of evil doers Ps 25 (26),5
*1 Sm 19,20 ἐκκλησίαν assembly of-קהלת for MT להקת ?
Cf. BARR 1961, 119–129; MURPHY 1958, 381–390; PERI 1989 245–251; SCHMIDT 1927, 258–319; →TWNT; NIDNTT
Lust, Johan, Erik Eynikel, and Katrin Hauspie. A Greek-English Lexicon of the Septuagint : Revised Edition 2003 : n. pag. Print.
will_scholten — 2017-10-08T07:53:39-04:00 — #16
but just quickly skimming through, I do not see "church" spelled out anywhere.
So my whole point is why is "church" in the NT instead of "assembly or congregation" as the rest of scriptures have it?
bkmitchell — 2017-10-08T08:12:45-04:00 — #17
You might find this interesting as it will give you a hint to look in the right direction:
Another rule sought to control the ecclesiastical language of the new version: ‘The old ecclesiastical words [are] to be kept, viz. the word “church” not to be translated “congregation” etc.’ The implementation of this rule was to be a persistent source of Puritan objections to the KJV, as Puritans, appropriating Tyndale’s argument, preferred ‘congregation’ to ‘church’, ‘wash’ to ‘baptise’, ‘elder’ or ‘senior’ to ‘bishop’ and ‘minister’ to ‘priest’.
will_scholten — 2017-10-08T08:27:42-04:00 — #18
Yes, it does look interesting, I will read it, thanks!!
bkmitchell — 2017-10-08T08:46:10-04:00 — #19
Old English cirice, circe "church, public place of worship; Christians collectively," from Proto-Germanic kirika (source also of Old Saxon kirika, Old Norse kirkja, Old Frisian zerke, Middle Dutch kerke, Dutch kerk, Old High German kirihha, German Kirche), probably [see note in OED] from Greek kyriake (oikia), kyriakon doma "Lord's (house)," from kyrios "ruler, lord," from PIE root *keue- "to swell" ("swollen," hence "strong, powerful"). Phonetic spelling from c. 1200, established by 16c. For vowel evolution, see bury. As an adjective from 1570s.
Greek kyriakon (adj.) "of the Lord" was used of houses of Christian worship since c.300, especially in the East, though it was less common in this sense than ekklesia or basilike. An example of the direct Greek-to-Germanic progress of many Christian words, via the Goths; it probably was used by West Germanic people in their pre-Christian period.
bkmitchell — 2017-10-08T08:55:47-04:00 — #20
Latin translations ecclesia, the Latin transliteration of the Greek word ekklesia was used to translate references to assemblies of Christ's people. The first Germanic translation, the Gothic translation also transliterated this to aikklesjon. At some point, however, in Germanic Languages the emphasis shifted to the use of kuriakos, meaning “belonging to the Lord” in reference to the people who belong to the Lord. In German this became the word kirche, in Anglo-Saxon it became the word cirice (also spelled cyrce or cyrice). In Wycliffe’s first translation of the Latin Vulgate into English (1395) it was chirche. William Tyndale, the first to translate the New Testament from the Greek (1526) actually translated ekklesia and rendered it “cogregacion” (the archaic spelling of the word “congregation”).
The Great Bible (1539) and the Bishop’s Bible (1568) did the same, BUT the Geneva (1557), Rheims-Douay (1582), and King James (1611) for some reason followed the approach taken by Wycliffe, rendering this “church” (as have virtually all English translations since then).
Concerning the King James Bible we know the reason why it followed Wycliffe's use of Chirche/Church because that was one King James 15 rules given to the translators.
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