dave_l — 2017-11-09T04:28:43-05:00 — #1
This is from one of my favorite works on the Amillennial position of eschatology. The Gospel Millennium and Obedience to Scripture by Robert Whitelaw.
Analysis of Biblical Prophecy and Fulfillment
When we analyze all these cases, we find that the fulfillments may be classified into five categories as follows:
(a) Natural events, fulfilled as described by the writer; thirteen cases.
(b) Natural events, but not fulfilled exactly as described or foreseen; eleven cases.
(c) Fulfilled by events both natural and spiritual, but never exactly as described or likely foreseen: sixteen cases.
(d) Fulfilled by events in the spiritual realm only, but not as described or likely foreseen: forty-three cases.
(e) Fulfillments cited in the N. T. as the general tenor of ‘, what the prophets have said”, and always fulfilled by events in the spiritual realm: eleven cases.
This classification is shown in detail in the following table, categories A, B, C, D and E.
(Prophecy Fulfilled As Described—
In Natural Realm)
Gen. 6: 17
Gen. 7: 11-23
Gen. 12: 7, 15: 18
Josh. 21: 43-45
Gen. 15: 13-16
Fulfilled in the Exodus
Gen. 17: 16, 21; 18: 10
Gen. 21: 2
Gen 41: 25
Gen. 41: 53-54
Exod. 13: 5: 23: 31
Neh. 9: 8
Num. 14: 34
Deut. 8: 2
2 Sam. 12: 10-12...
2 Sam 13:1 and following. 1 Kings 2:1 and following.
1 Kings 11: 11 -13, 31
1 Kings 12: 20-24
Isa. 44: 28, 45: 13
Ezra 1:1; and following
Jer. 25: 9-12; 29: 10; 30
Zech. 1:12; 2 Chron. 36: 21
Ezek. 4: 1-8; Jer. 37: 7-8; Isa. 37: 33-35..
Dan. 4: 25; 5: 26
Dan. 4: 31; 5: 30
(Prophecy Fulfilled Not As Described—
In Natural Realm)
Exod. 12: 46; Num. 9: 12.
John 19: 36
Psalm 16: 10
Acts 2: 27; 13: 35
Psalm 22: 18
Matt. 27: 35
Psalm 102: 25-27
Heb. 1: 10-12
Isa. 7: 14
Matt. 1: 22-23
Isa. 40: 3-5
Matt. 3: 3; Luke 3: 4
Jer. 31: 15
Jer. 40: 1
Matt. 2: 17
Zech. 11: 12-13
Matt. 27: 8-10
Zech. 12: 10
John 19: 37
Zech 13: 7
Matt. 26: 31
(Prophecy Fulfilled Not As Described—
In Both Natural and Spiritual Realms)
Gen. 3: 15
Isa. 53: 10; Heb. 2: 14
Gen. 17: 8; 13: 15; 22: 18
Acts 3: 25 Gal. 3: 14-17
Gen. 49: 10
John 14: 27; 11: 52
Deut. 18: 18-19
Acts 3: 23
Isa. 6: 9-13
Matt. 13: 14; John 12: 40; Acts 28: 26
Isa. 25: 8
1 Cor. 15: 54
Isa 28: 11
1 Cor. 14: 21
Isa. 29: 18; 35: 5-6
Matt. 11: 5-6; Luke 7: 22-23
Isa. 42: 1-3
Matt. 12: 17-21
Isa. 53: 4
Matt. 8: 17
Isa. 53: 7-8
Acts 8: 32
Isa. 53: 12
Mark 15: 27-28; Luke 22: 37
Micah 5: 2
Matt. 2: 5-6
Hab. 1: 5
Acts 13: 41
Zech. 9: 9
Matt. 21: 5; Mark & Luke
Mal. 3: 1; 4: 5-6.
Matt. 11: 10-14; 17: 11-12
(Prophecy Fulfilled Not As Described—
In Spiritual Realm)
Gen. 17:5; 35:11
John 1:29; Rev. 5
Exod. 19:5-6; 29:45
1 Pet. 2:9
Lev. 26:12, Ezek. 37:26-27 .
2 Cor. 6:16
2 Sam. 7:13-14
Heb. 1:5; 3:6
2 Sam. 22:50
Heb. 1:8, 9; Rom. 8:34
Heb. 3:7-11; 4:3-11
Acts 2:34; Heb. 1:13
Matt. 21:42; Luke 20:17
Isa. 8:14, 28:16
1 Pet. 2:6-8
Rom. 9:27, 32-33
1 Cor. 1:18-19
2 Cor. 6:2
Isa. 52:7; 53:1
Isa. 54: 1
Gal. 4: 27
Isa. 54: 13
John 6: 44-45
Isa. 59: 20; 45: 25
Rom. 11: 26
Isa. 61: 1-2
Luke 4: 17-19
Isa. 65: 1
Rom. 10: 20
Jer. 31: 33ff
Heb. 8: 8-13; 10: 15-24
Ezek. 11: 19; 36: 26
2 Cor. 3: 2-6
Hos. 2: 23; 1: 10...
Rom. 9: 24-26; 10: 20
Joel 2: 28
Acts 2: 16-21
Amos 9: 11 -12
Acts 15: 15-16
Hab. 2: 4
Rom. 1: 17
Hag 2: 6
Heb. 12: 26-29
Zech. 6: 12
Eph. 2: 20; Heb. 3: 3; 1 Pet. 2: 4, 6; Acts 4: 11
(General Fulfillments of O. T. By N. T. —
In Spiritual Realm)
Collective Message of the Prophets;
Matt. 13: 17; Luke 1: 70; Acts 3: 24; 13: 32; Rom. 16: 26-27; 1 Pet. 1: 10-12
Christ “The Branch: “
Matt. 2: 23; 24: 32; Isa. 11: 1, 4: 2; 53: 2; Luke 21: 30-31; Jer. 23: 5; Zech. 3: 8; 6: 12; John 2: 19-20
“Living Waters” Prophecies:
Isa. 43: 19; 41: 18; 32: 2; Ezek. 47: 9; Joel 3: 18; Zech.14: 8;
Fulfilled in John 7: 38
Robert Whitelaw. THE GOSPEL MILLENNIUM and Obedience to Scripture.
gao_lu — 2017-11-09T06:31:36-05:00 — #2
There is a book that will fix everything wrong with Covenental Amillennialism.
Buy it from Logos:
Fruchtenbaum, A. G. (1994). Israelology: the missing link in systematic theology (Rev. ed.). Tustin, CA: Ariel Ministries.
The book is from a Dispensational perspective but treats all perspectives quite well. The author is verbose, restates things endlessly, but makes a water-tight, irrefutable case. I am still wading through it and thoroughly enjoying it, but have to come up for air quite often. The author is quite hard on some Covenental theologians--even harder on them than I am on Dave (God rest his weary soul), but rightly so.
On a more serious note. I really do recommend the book. It was my birthday present to myself recently.
dave_l — 2017-11-09T06:48:47-05:00 — #3
I am hoping you and others will present your views so we can compare and not debate. Possibly have questions and answers? This thread came about from a discussion Tyrone and I had about Eschatology where I told him I would present scriptural support for the Amillennial position.
Why not post some of your findings based on the book?
tyrone_howard — 2017-11-09T10:26:59-05:00 — #4
I'm a little confused on the Organization of the Post.
You list some prophecies & then in the bible where they were fulfilled - spiritually, physically or both.
I was looking more for the Ones That Were prophesied to be then to our knowledge were not fulfilled; neither recorded biblically or to our knowledge anywhere else in other places in history.
You were more looking to discuss amillennialism and premillennialism? I don't really have a horse in that race, I've never given much thought to that.
I do however like to see things prophesied and when/where they came to pass, can take some research because location names have changed from when the prophets recorded them but still traceable. That is what I thought we were discussing by Prophecies fulfilled.
dave_l — 2017-11-09T10:32:48-05:00 — #5
This is where understanding Amillennialism and Premillennialism comes into play. Amillennialism sees everything but the events of the last day and the new heavens and earth being fulfilled or having been fulfilled. Premillennialism and its offshoot Dispensationalism see everything since the early days of Jesus yet future. I offer some of the scriptures and their fulfillment leading up to the last day and beyond.
tyrone_howard — 2017-11-09T10:35:51-05:00 — #6
I must have problems reading because they just read so similar, let me restate in a way that clearly separates the two, and see if this is what we are discussing:
One believes everything has already been fulfilled. Nothing left to come to past?
One believes everything but the events of the last day fulfilled (but the last day events have began now that we are in the last days being fulfilled)?
dave_l — 2017-11-09T10:47:07-05:00 — #7
The top line of scripture is the prophecy, the bottom line is the fulfillment.
Hab. 2: 4 = the prophecy
Rom. 1: 17 = the fulfillment
tyrone_howard — 2017-11-09T11:13:42-05:00 — #8
Where do you find these fulfilled:
The Mark of the Beast, 7 Plagues, the 7 Vials
All of this occurs before the Millennial Christ Reign
dave_l — 2017-11-09T11:27:10-05:00 — #9
It all happens during the millennial reign of Christ presently taking place. Think about this. According to Premillennialists, in Revelation 20 we see the first resurrection of the saints. But the rest of the dead do not live until the second resurrection.
But just before the second resurrection, the nations attack the church. So the nations must be some of the saints who were in the first resurrection.
There are many like problems with views other than the Amillennial view.
tyrone_howard — 2017-11-09T11:28:50-05:00 — #10
No scriptures say it happened before. Not during.
dave_l — 2017-11-09T11:37:19-05:00 — #11
Go through the scriptures I posted and you'll see the fulfillments past, present and yet to come. All according to scripture.
tyrone_howard — 2017-11-09T11:40:18-05:00 — #12
Can you just show me the scriptures/events in history which show the Below:
First Plague: Boils/Sores on those with the Mark of the Beast;
1And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image (Revelation 16:1-2).
dave_l — 2017-11-09T11:45:07-05:00 — #13
If you are looking for a literal fulfillment of these judgements, you will not see it happen. Any more than you will see red dragons floating around in outer space. The book of Revelation is mostly symbolic. You must look for what the symbols represent.
This is from one of my resources. Just like the Gospels give 4 views of the same basic theme, Revelation gives 7 views of the entire church age. Beginning with the first advent of Christ continuing through the second advent.
"The heart of the book is seven parallel sections which describe the period from Christ’s 1st to His 2nd Coming, the Church age. Each section climactically concludes with the Final Judgment. The following is a very basic outline:
John Commissioned as a Prophet (Revelation 1:1-20)
John’s Prophetic Messages to the 7 Churches (Revelation 2:1-3:22)
The Heavenly Origin of John’s Prophecy (Revelation 4:1-5:14)
The 7 Cycles of Judgment (Revelation 6:1-21:9)
7 Seals of Judgment on Earth (Revelation 6:1-8:1)
7 Trumpets of Judgment on Earth (Revelation 8:2-11:19)
Rise of the Dragon, Beast, & False Prophet (Revelation 12:1-14:20)
7 Bowls of Judgment (Revelation 15:1-16:21)
Rise & Judgment of Babylon (Revelation 17:1-19:10)
Judgment of the Beast and False Prophet (Revelation 19:11-21)
Judgment of the Dragon (Revelation 20:1-15)
God’s New Creation Revelation (Revelation 21:1-22:5)
Conclusion (Revelation 22:6-21)
Revelation Must be Interpreted by the Analogy of Scripture "
Daniel R. Hyde. How Do I Read the Book of Revelation?
tyrone_howard — 2017-11-09T12:04:30-05:00 — #14
Sept 23rd I saw a Red Dragon in the firmament. The very signs God gave us from the beginning, the stars, showed in quite details Revelation 12. It was kinda cool to watch.
But that's not What I asked. I asked for you to give me a time in history where those without the Mark of The Beast were prevented from buying and selling; And Those who had this mark were covered in sores ( or boils if you wish to interpret that Greek word that way)
Show me a time, symbolically, literally, or spiritually when this occurred.
dave_l — 2017-11-09T12:13:24-05:00 — #15
All of the Reformers, Wesley, and others identified the Papacy as the Antichrist. So that's a biggie. The Mark of the Beast is symbolic of any totalitarian system that demands allegiance in trade for buying and selling "privileges". Again, the Mark is symbolic.
tyrone_howard — 2017-11-09T12:26:58-05:00 — #16
I didn't ask you about the Anti-Christ. Specifically . I asked for you to give me a time in history where those without the Mark of The Beast were prevented from buying and selling; And Those who had this mark were covered in sores ( or boils if you wish to interpret that Greek word that way).
give me an example of a global totalitarian system that prevent participation without a certain mark that God's people were instructed not to take, that prevented those without it from buying and selling - and those with this mark were plagued with sores.
Symbolic Example? spiritual Example or Literal Example? Remember the exmaple must fulfill ALL parts or it doesn't qualify. Gods Word is 100% . If even 1 thing, even a tittle or Jot is untrue then Its all a Lie and nobody can be saved, nor is there anything to be saved from.
dave_l — 2017-11-09T13:39:49-05:00 — #17
Revelation is mostly symbolic. You will not see God fulfilling the symbol with the symbol. We recently saw the Mark surface in the US when the Christian businesses could no longer buy or sell unless they received the Mark by yielding obedience to the State. You'll miss all of Revelation if you do not understand the symbolic nature.
gao_lu — 2017-11-09T16:00:41-05:00 — #18
Tyrone, Covenental theologians typically see prophecies as allegorical and not literal. If you take most prophecies literally, you will never figure out how a Covenental Theologian thinks. Right or wrong, nothing means anything for sure to them and that view is necessary to support their theology. That is how people come up with Amillennialism and that Israel and the church are the same thing and Israel was rejected and evaporated immediately after Christ died and the church is Israel and vice versa, etc.
tyrone_howard — 2017-11-09T17:10:13-05:00 — #19
What would I be then When I believe Both are true:
I don't believe things are either or, but support for both exist. Some Prophecies are happening on the Earth, some in the Heavens, some Both. Some have happened before yet will Happen again, Some Prophecies will have happened 3 times before its all over with etc..
I'm probbaly just confused. Who Knows. I can never recall things like this when I want to which is why I asked Dave to bring some specific issues to cause so I could demonstrate my view. Like the Mark of the BEast I believe is a literal, earthly Prophecy. I believe the war between the Dragon, when God will withdraw from the Mercy Seat and Satan will dwell (the 3rd occurrence of this prophecy:abomination of desolation standing) will happen in Heaven (this is why a new Heaven will be created)...etc etc I could be completely wrong though
I laid the grounds for Prophecy fulfillment to qualify as such, you ignored, I'll restate: Remember the example must fulfill ALL parts or it doesn't qualify. Gods Word is 100% . If even 1 thing, even a tittle or Jot is untrue then Its all a Lie and nobody can be saved, nor is there anything to be saved from.
How was this mark symbolically in a business hand or forehead?
How did this prevent ANYONE not just Christian Business from buying/selling without this Mark symbolically?
How were the ones who took the mark (the rest of the world) plagued with sores?
This does not match up to the Mark of the beast in the hand or head , the plagues poured out on those who subscribed, and the refusal to buy/sell for those who did not.
gao_lu — 2017-11-09T21:31:53-05:00 — #20
As a backdrop to understanding your eschatology, we need to understand your soteriology and your notion of Covenants.
- When do you think the "Covenant of Grace" began? With Adam or with Abraham?
- What are the permanent and what are the temporary elements of The Law?
- Do you see the church today as the seed of Abraham? The Heavenly Zion? The Olive Tree of Rom 11?
- Have all distinctions between Jews and Gentiles been erased forever?
- Do you deny a future national restoration of Israel?
- Are all the promises of Israel-future fulfilled in the Church?
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