bkmitchell — 2017-09-25T18:35:07-04:00 — #1
Disclaimer: the posting/linking of the following video and hyperlinks does not in any way represent an automatic endorsement of the views presented therein. The following or posted only for the sake of discussion.
Scientists say free will probably doesn't exist but urge don't stop believing(Scientific American)
There is no such thing as free will (The Atlantic)
Sam Harris - The Case Against Free Will
How About You?
What do you think (if you believe in freedom of will)?
What have you been programmed/conditioned/or predestined to think (if you don't believe in free will)?
gao_lu — 2017-09-25T19:41:59-04:00 — #2
Years ago, I had a Biochem Prof who fielded 15 min Friday bio-ethics/philosophy questions. This topic came up and we discussed:
If everything comes down to matter in motion, subject to the laws of physics, then of course there could be no such thing as free will. If matter is a medium in which something we might call "spirit" exists, and if matter can be disturbed by that "spirit," then free will might exist.
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-25T21:30:20-04:00 — #3
Are you asking for a video response or belief on the subject presented in the video?
dave_l — 2017-09-26T05:21:34-04:00 — #4
I believe if you understand that behind the Big Bang (voice of God speaking the universe into existence) there is the infinite mind of God, science can provide understanding of predestination.
Everything that ever was or ever will be, including the New Heavens and Earth happened at once, set into motion, taking primary form over the course of six literal days. Falling out in time through secondary causes.
And because everything that ever will be continues to take shape according to irreversible secondary causes, it is unchangeable. We can no more change the future than we can change the past. Because our efforts to change the future are responses to secondary causes that produce the future.
So in the Bible, free will doesn't exist unless there is another god who is independent of creation. Only such a god could have free will. All the free will choices people make are according to the secondary causes (reasons) that determined their choice.
The Traducian Theory of reproduction in the Bible states that entire souls exist in the loins of their ancestors.
“All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt, which came out of his loins, besides Jacob’s sons’ wives, all the souls were threescore and six;” (Genesis 46:26)
We know a single different sperm and egg combination out of millions would have produced someone other than you. Someone like a brother or sister in your place. So if you multiply this by the untold trillions of chances any in your family tree could have been someone else, you would not exist. But we know God wrote the names of the elect in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world. This means each of your ancestors including the circumstances leading to their cohabitation and who they cohabited with were all part of God's plan for your existence. This explains why God bears the corrupt and causes them to prosper if the elect exist somewhere in their future lineage.
bkmitchell — 2017-09-26T08:26:15-04:00 — #5
Actually, either one will be appreciated. Originally, I only linked the articles, but later I also linked the video just to provide some perspective on the topic from a non-theological view as well. Next time around I will be a more clear and elaborate. However, thank you, Tyrone Howard, for asking I greatly appreciate your assertiveness and that you asked for clarification.
bkmitchell — 2017-09-26T09:07:14-04:00 — #6
Would that then mean that ultimately God is responsible for the choices people make whether those choices be considered good, neutral, or bad? Or, does that mean that people didn't make actually make any choices, but rather God made all the choices an individual thinks he/she made?
dave_l — 2017-09-26T10:04:38-04:00 — #7
God caused sin for his glory. But people want to sin or they would not. So they incur the guilt.
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-26T10:05:25-04:00 — #8
Who made them want to sin?
dave_l — 2017-09-26T10:14:35-04:00 — #9
Adam was completely sinless until God gave him a law. But Adam wanted to sin after hearing the law or he would not have sinned. So God caused Adam to sin by creating him with a nature that would want to sin once given a law to break. But Adam experienced the guilt and punishment because he genuinely wanted to sin. You could say God is the cause of sin but man is the author of sin.
bkmitchell — 2017-09-26T10:24:23-04:00 — #10
The above sentence implies that people have desires(wills) which I can understand would be possible if they had freedom of will, but in "Hard Predeterministic" paradigm freedom of will is not possible since alternative possibilities (and personal choices through free agency) by definition do not exist.
dave_l — 2017-09-26T10:25:52-04:00 — #11
Their wills are free to respond to the reasons that caused their choices. And God sends and controls the reasons. And ultimately them through the reasons.
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-26T10:26:38-04:00 — #12
This is free will
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Free will again.
You could, but then you would be contradicting scripture.
dave_l — 2017-09-26T10:30:06-04:00 — #13
Satan tempted Adam, not God.
Free will does not exist because the will is bound by the person's nature and controlled by the reasons they make their choices.
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-26T10:40:00-04:00 — #14
You don't even stand firm on your own discourse positions, how do I do anything with that. Like a wind, tossed to and fro, Be blessed Dave
dave_l — 2017-09-26T10:41:50-04:00 — #15
Please be more specific. I do not understand.
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-26T10:45:05-04:00 — #16
In one moment you blame Satan, Another moment you blame God (which both are wrong according to scripture) for sin.
dave_l — 2017-09-26T14:41:44-04:00 — #17
God used Satan to tempt Adam but it was Satan who did the tempting. This made Adam's sin all the worse. Because he not only wanted to sin, he believed lies instead of truth. Why did God create Satan? Why does he keep him alive?
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-26T15:49:12-04:00 — #18
This is not the source of Sin. Neither Satan's sin nor Adam's sin, nor any mans. Sin is not authored by temptation.
bkmitchell — 2017-09-26T16:34:37-04:00 — #19
Okay, so they/we actually do have freedom of will?
fred — 2017-09-26T23:01:46-04:00 — #20
Exactly how God combines his providential control with our willing and significant choices, Scripture does not explain; yet God causes us to make willing choices.
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