justin_gatlin — 2017-10-09T16:10:47-04:00 — #1
I am working through the book "The Extent of the Atonement" by David Allen. I got it for free last year at the Jax Pastor's Conference (great experience, you should go).
He says that the debate often muddies the waters by confusing the intent, extent and application of the atonement., High and Hyper Calvinists believe they all encompass the same group of people. Universalists agree, but believe that group to include everyone.
Moderate Calvinists (including, apparently, John Calvin) believe God's intent and the application are the same, but not the extent - the death of Jesus was sufficient to save everyone, but He intended to save only the elect, and only did.
Arminians believe the intent and extent (to save all men) are equal, but the application is only those who believe.
So, the question of the extent of the atonement is this: "If everyone believed (regardless of whether or not this is possible), would everyone be saved?" Limited Atonement says no: they would be damned even if they came to genuine repentance and faith. Universal atonement says yes. If you were capable of staying on topic and ignoring election, depravity and so on, Christian Discourse, what would you say (please include Scriptural reasoning)?
tyrone_howard — 2017-10-09T16:42:55-04:00 — #2
I believe so. The faith in Jesus Christ is what is accounted for righteousness (staying on topic so as to exclude living for him being necessary). Even as Abraham's Faith in God was counted to him for righteousness.
dave_l — 2017-10-09T18:40:20-04:00 — #3
Is the atonement conditional or unconditional? If conditional, then salvation is by works (meeting conditions). If unconditional, salvation is by grace (there are no conditions people can meet).
The Amyraldian Calvinist (4 point Calvinist) says the atonement is conditional and freely available to all, but conditioned on faith. And God gives faith only to the elect. But this still results in salvation by works.
The view I hold is that the atonement is unconditional and applies only to the elect. And apart from the new birth (actual salvation) purchased by the atonement, people hate the true God and worship idols bearing his name. It is not as though some poor soul wants to be saved and cannot be since he is not elect. Because the Total Depravity of our species renders all incapable of desiring the true God whom we naturally hate.
The verses that state that Jesus paid for the sins of the world are understood in view of the gentiles being grafted into Israel to whom the promises apply. The verses that state Jesus died for many limit the Atonement to those who God actually saves.
Jesus told the pharisees in John 10 that they could not believe because he did not die for them.
““I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.” (John 10:11)
“But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.” (John 10:26)
The outcome is; a person can know Jesus died for them if they can believe on him. Because God gives faith only to those whose sins Jesus paid for on the cross. Those who think Jesus died for all and that faith is a condition they must meet for salvation, have no way of knowing Jesus died for them personally.
gao_lu — 2017-10-09T18:58:22-04:00 — #4
Dave, I know you are a staunch Calvinist yet so many of your arguments and life are Arminian. Here is the deal...
We can defend hyper-Calvinism or Arminian views well from the Bible. Neither group is nuts. Both have a solid handle on the truth. So who is right and who is wrong? Both are a little of both.
The one thing I am absolutely sure of is that anyone who is absolutely sure of anything is wrong. Some things we can consider, talk about, but the details, exactly how God thinks and works and why, we cannot fully know. I can't know such things about my wife, even myself--much less God. So when people are absolutely sure they have God all pinned down like an insect in a box the one thing we can know is that they are almost certainly wrong.
When we start talking about thing like "Extent of Atonement" I think we are fiddling in areas way over our heads. Sure we can talk about it--like we talk about space or eternity or things we know we can't grasp.The thing is, as we talk, however interesting and whatever theories we contrive, we must remember that we see a very small part of the whole.
dave_l — 2017-10-09T19:04:39-04:00 — #5
So Jesus was wrong in all that he said? Jesus said the truth will make you free. He didn't say "gray areas" will make you free.
If the atonement is universal, it does not pay for all sin, or all would be saved. If it pays for all sin, then it is limited to those it actually saves.
gao_lu — 2017-10-09T19:13:33-04:00 — #6
Jesus was right. The truth makes us free. Gray areas don't make us free. Yet salvation is not conditional upon knowing everything God knows. We do not become little gods knowing everything and it becomes impossible to be wrong.
Dave, I keep granting a lot of grace a lot of credit, but sometimes your theology and behavior alarm me. Maybe you need to be born again--one more time. Or maybe you need to tone down the pride and not think you can't be wrong and that you know as much as God.
That is a good definition for limited atonement and I fully agree. You may not realize that I am a full 5-point TULIP dude so long as we define the terms well and don't go adding a lot of impossible nonsense.
Here is a rather Wesleyan view from the internet. I would word some things differently, but it seems interesting enough as a contrast to the Dave version.
Mankind is totally depraved, but God has extended His common grace to all so that every man or woman can search and find God.
Before the foundation of the world God elected all men to salvation but most refuse His offer.
The atonement of Christ is open to all men everywhere and is limited only by our refusal to be saved.
The "common grace" [prevenient grace] of God is given to all men everywhere and it is irresistible, but saving grace can be refused by a stubborn heart.
Perseverance of the Saints
Once saved, a person will always be saved unless by defiant, continual, purposeful, rebellion he or she refuses God's grace and chooses apostasy. Though relatively rare for a truly saved person, apostasy is possible.
dave_l — 2017-10-10T07:13:10-04:00 — #7
Salvation is not conditioned on anything in those whom God saves or it would not be grace, but works. But part of salvation is knowing the truth when you hear it and spotting lies and rejecting them.
I used to believe the way you do and it bothers my conscience if I leave you in the dark.
Scripture does not support this view. God foreknew whom he would save predestinating them to be conformed to the image of Christ. He did not predestine them to salvation because they were conformed to the image of Christ. (Romans 8:29, 30)
This also is not scriptural.
“And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.” (1 Peter 2:8)
“The LORD delighted only in your fathers, to love them; and He chose their descendants after them, even you above all people, as it is today.” (Deuteronomy 10:15)
“What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,” (Romans 9:22)
Not found in the bible. This position means Christ did not pay for all sin. Or else all would be saved. It says that a self-righteous permission granted to God allowing him to save each, (that is, not sinning) saves the person. And this is salvation by works.
Grace that does not save is not grace. And who would reject salvation once they experience it? The truth is, grace actually saves people and it is the nature of this new birth to overcome the opposition of the flesh.
“for whoever is born of God overcomes the world, and the victory that overcomes the world is our faith.” (1 John 5:4)
“for whoever is born of God overcomes the world, and the victory that overcomes the world is our faith.” (1 John 5:4)
“Whoever has been born of God does not practice sin, for His seed remains in him. And he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.” (1 John 3:9)
gao_lu — 2017-10-10T07:19:18-04:00 — #8
I am glad you support some of your ideas with Scripture. That is important.
I have never thought the way you do, but Oh Dave, it bothers my conscience if I leave you in the dark!
I think we care a lot about each other. That is kind of nice.
tyrone_howard — 2017-10-10T08:48:23-04:00 — #9
Tulip. Hilarious. I like that.
Knowitall. Frustrating. Jesus have mercy.
Desiring to know all and be like God is why Adam and Eve ate the fruit. This is not why Christ savrd us.
dave_l — 2017-10-10T11:50:12-04:00 — #10
Do you know what TULIP stands for in church history?
tyrone_howard — 2017-10-10T11:58:08-04:00 — #11
Tulip: a beautiful Flower which God created.
Tulip - TULIP is also an acronym used to summarize the Five Points of Calvinism, which were codified in the Canons of Dort by the Synod of Dort in 1618 and 1619
dave_l — 2017-10-10T12:00:08-04:00 — #12
Can you recite them without looking?
tyrone_howard — 2017-10-10T12:04:42-04:00 — #13
Gao just did. Why? Is there a reason?
dave_l — 2017-10-10T12:08:30-04:00 — #14
Gao recited the Wesleyan version. But one would do well to know the contents of the original version.
tyrone_howard — 2017-10-10T12:12:54-04:00 — #15
You must be that one.
This one would have done well to know neither. I myself, love @Gao_Lu , and affirm the Love of Jesus Christ in him, before knowing that he has Wes Nile virus, or knows Wesley Snipes, or that he banged West Coast.
Joking of course. Yet more serious, as I've said before, all that labeling is anti-christ I have made myself to know nothing but Jesus Christ and him crucified.
dave_l — 2017-10-10T12:21:24-04:00 — #16
You should not denounce things you have no idea about.
tyrone_howard — 2017-10-10T12:24:15-04:00 — #17
I don't denounce the ideas, only the labeling of them. None of those labels are scriptural. Show me Martin Luther or Mr.Calvin in the bible?
Like Paul said, what is this some say they are of Paul, some say they are of Apollos. Neither was crucified. One Planted. One Watered. God gave the increase. the same with those labels. I charge; What is this some say they are of Calvin. Some that they are of Luther. or others that They are of Armanism. Any of those die for your sins?
They are man-made. I don't want to be affiliated, nor need to be, except with the Master Jesus Christ.
dave_l — 2017-10-10T12:50:58-04:00 — #18
I can show you what they taught from the bible.
You are of Sabellius (declared a heretic and excommunicated by the church 220 AD) who like you, rejected the Trinity preferring a different Christ.
But you are affiliated with Sabellius who served a "different man made Christ".
tyrone_howard — 2017-10-10T13:06:53-04:00 — #19
You don't know me, yet I know you and what spirit you are of. Out of Wickedness comes forth wickedness. The Lord shall avenge your words upon your own head, for every Idol word will men give account, and again he saith in another place he said, Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof. You reject me, because I reject Man, yet you don't reject me, but Christ in Me.
Blessed are they that are persecuted for righteousness sake, and again Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
So, please continue in all that you have to accuse against me. I was wondering why i'd been so blessed lately, makes sense now.
dave_l — 2017-10-10T14:57:25-04:00 — #20
I know you reject the Trinity and believe in salvation by works (holiness). These are two major issues that divide us. Also the free will Gospel directs people away from trusting in Christ to trusting in the their own wicked flesh as the means of salvation.
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