eric_seelye — 2016-09-28T21:17:08-04:00 — #1
Here's a great story about a great man. The film about him, due to be released on November 4th, looks like it should be well worth seeing. https://patriotpost.us/alexander/45085
charles_mcneil — 2016-09-29T02:58:55-04:00 — #2
dave_l — 2016-09-29T05:53:34-04:00 — #3
That looks like a great movie about a profound hero. I always thought the bravery of the Conscientious Objectors was far under stated. Especially those who faced prison and death for refusing violence. But at the same time what would have happened if Desmond would have loved the enemy as well, as Christ expects, giving them aid too? Would that be treason?
charles_mcneil — 2016-09-29T12:34:24-04:00 — #4
Who is to say he didn't help enemy soldiers? If he did and they survived they would be called P.O.Ws. It's not treason. We must love the life of our enemies.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you (Matt. 5:43-44 KJV).
We must love not only our "enemies", but those that "persecute" us. "Are we there, yet?"
Hey, take a step back. Doss demonstrated his denial of his own safety to help those of his unit. What more you want from the man? He's not God. Is it wrong to take care of family, fellow soldiers-those he trained with, the country he represented, and his word of commitment to serve and protect? He was like a doctor in the middle of a situation with many wounded. You take care of the most critical of the bunch first. This he did. Be faithful to duty is what is required of all men in service, as well as, pastors in a church. A doctor may not be able to save all, but save as many as he can. Like the Apostle Paul, in view of the circumstances, he said: "...I have made myself a servant to all...I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some" (1 Cor. 9:19-23 KJV).
God, Country, Self--Desmond Doss, in Christ, he fear no loss. Thank God for what the man did! CM
dave_l — 2016-09-29T14:47:36-04:00 — #5
Helping them according to Christ is far different then holding them hostage as P.O.W's. Aren't we killing enemies we are to love by proxy if we help governments kill?
charles_mcneil — 2016-09-29T18:13:09-04:00 — #6
Let's not get lost in the weeds on this matter. The short answer to your concern is, if any truth attached to it, beware:
- It's better to be a P. O. W. than to be dead, ask Arizona Senator John McCain.
- Please re-read Romans 13 -- governments as servants of God.
- If you're insinuating that Doss is guilty of killing "by proxy" for providing medical care to wounded soldiers, at war; then, so are you.
-- You pay taxes (City, County, State, & Federal). If you don't, keep it to yourself.
-- You have done so for a long time, probably, going back to World War II. If you are that old. So, do you Remember, the atomic bomb? If not, it was dropped on your behalf.
-- You didn't fight against or took up arm against the country where you lived. Therefore, you supported (finance) its cause and actions.
-- The same taxes that provide services and protection at home, kills for you overseas or wherever it fights a war.
-- The one finger, you appear to point at Doss, there are four fingers pointing back at you. CM
dave_l — 2016-09-29T19:23:48-04:00 — #7
Thanks for your observations. But please show me from the New Testament how Christians are to kill or help kill enemies for any reason. Or, become unequally yoked with unbelievers in the military. Or how Christians can become the civil magistrate when Paul says "he" is the minister of God for "thee"......
“Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.” (Romans 12:19)
“For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.” (Romans 13:4)
charles_mcneil — 2016-10-14T02:19:59-04:00 — #8
Sorry for the long delay. Allow me to remind you of a saying, "Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime."
The phrase is not biblical. It dates from the late 19th C. in England and is credited as the creation of Anne Isabella Richie, daughter of writer William Makepeace Thackeray.
Your inquiry is a serious one and deserves a healthy response. So, I have decided to give you resources than just a response. This may not answer your concern as concise, as I want to or you would like it, but here are some of the most recent resources that may cover your interest and than some. Divine violence has become a heated discussion point in recent years. Christians have written many volumes on this topic over the years. Here are a few books that appear to be very promising to enlighten:
Paul Copan and Matthew Flannagan’s Did God Really Command Genocide? Coming to Terms with the Justice of God [Grand Rapids: Baker, 2014].
Heath Thomas, Jeremy Evans, and Paul Copan’s Holy War in the Bible: Christian Morality and an Old Testament Problem [Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic, 2013].
Joshua Butler’s The Skeletons in God’s Closet [Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 2014).
M. Daniel Carroll R. and J. Blair Wilgus, eds. Wrestling with the Violence of God: Soundings in the Old Testament. BBR Supplement 10. Winona Lake, IN: Eisenbrauns, 2015.
This last source or book, focuses on the introductory chapter by the editors. He sets up the issue by "describing the problem that many have with the violent deity of the Old Testament and how Christians have responded...this chapter is a good place to start and the very full footnotes direct the reader to the essential works on the topic. In short, the problem revolves around serving a God who acts in violent ways and commands his people to act in violent ways; the preeminent example is the commanded destruction of the Canaanites, which sounds very similar to the modern definition of genocide."
The God of the OT is the same God of the NT. The people and times may have been different, but the same Holy God reigns. Happy reading! CM
dave_l — 2016-10-14T06:11:04-04:00 — #9
Thanks for the interesting and thoughtful response. I know many try to remake God into the peaceful and passive creature he expects us to be under the New Covenant. But He is still the same "genocidal" wrathful God that cannot be good unless he kills every sinner. He always pays and the wages of sin is death.
But his will for us is that we never resort to violence. But instead treat with love those we hate. And treat kindly those we would kill had he not told us not to. So it remains, there is no warrant or justification for Christian violence under the New Covenant.
“Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.” (Romans 12:19–21)
charles_mcneil — 2016-10-15T14:23:50-04:00 — #10
My purpose for sharing the references was in anticipation that you would invest more time in reading and reflecting upon its content before concluding with the "'genocidal' wrathful God", statement above. A rapid respond from the resources were not expected nor required. All on these forums are not as firm in their faith or broad in their understanding as you or I. Let's be mindful of the "weak" or the "babes" in the faith.
Every sin is not unto death (that i, the second death).
All Christians must bear Christ's character in the manifestation of will in righteous living outlined in the beatitudes, especially, the eighth one.
We just need to stay sweet, God will address those who mistreat those who belongs to Him.
As for Mr. Doss, the only thing I was somewhat disappointed about; at his funeral they gave him full military honors, that included, the 21-guns salute. How ironic? He was a "Conscientious Objector", refused to bear arms. Then again, he didn't, they did. CM
dave_l — 2016-10-15T14:31:24-04:00 — #11
This was not a hasty move on my part. But the result of years of study and bearing up under vengeful "Christians" who would rather kill enemies than witness to them.
Sooner or later we will deal with those making God out to be a genocidal maniac. We can only counter them by telling them why he appears that way to them. Not by denying that he is behind the death of every sinner.
charles_mcneil — 2016-10-15T16:10:45-04:00 — #12
Thanks for the clarification of your understanding and decision to express yourself in the manner in which you did. Please don't take my remarks as thinking you had not thought on the matter or was a "tabula rasa" (Latin for "blank slate") on the topic in using the phrase: " The genocidal wrathful God."
I was more concern about the "weak" or the "babes" in these forums in light of what you didn't say. You didn't mentioned or referred to God's sovereignty, his foreknowledge, grace, mercy, holiness or long-suffering characteristics. These Divine attributes will do well to accompany your "genocidal wrathful God" statement. God is love!
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16 KJV).
He has given men, time, knowledge, gifts, faith and salvation.
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter. 3:9 KJV).
I think there should have been more balanced sharing to avoid making God out to be some type of Charles Bronson/Clint Eastwood divine revenger or vigilante. God relates to man out of love and what is best for humanity, in light of time as well as eternity. God is not some type of Trumpsonian Being, hitting back harder out of emotion or a wounded ego.
Let's keep in mind:
"For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
"But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil" (Heb. 5:13-14, KJV).
I added the word "God" in the brackets. However, do you really want to say this or am I mis-reading your statement?
Stay in the Word! CM
dave_l — 2016-10-15T18:54:34-04:00 — #13
Not even a sparrow dies apart from God. How can the death of sinners be otherwise?
charles_mcneil — 2016-10-16T18:03:14-04:00 — #14
There is difference between knowing of a death than causing the death. In your words:
Why would God create and go to such great length save man, if he going to systematically knocks off the human race? CM
dave_l — 2016-10-16T18:40:27-04:00 — #15
If God foreknows something and then creates it, doesn't he cause it by creating it? Why does he keep Satan alive? Why did God create cancer cells, virus, bacteria, and promise to withhold sickness from the Israelites if they repented? “.... God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,” (Ephesians 3:9–10)
God is good because he kills sinners. He would not be good if he did not. It was his rule that the wages of sin is death, not ours. Also God is good because he took his own wrath on the cross for those whom he placed in Christ. So God is good no matter how you look at it.