News & Current Events
dave_l — 2017-12-06T07:46:00-05:00 — #1
“And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.” (Genesis 12:3)
Many if not most believe today's State of Israel are God's chosen people. And that God blesses those who bless them and curses those who curse them. So, many expect God to bless the USA in their support for the State of Israel.
But I believe the opposite is true. The Church is biblical Israel. And I believe much of the trouble plaguing the US stems from supporting the State of Israel.
Biblical Israel accepted Christ and God broke off the unbelievers from Israel, grafting believing gentiles into their place. The unbelievers continued to exist calling themselves Israel, solely because of their hatred and rejection of Christ and his people.
david_taylor_jr — 2017-12-06T14:13:37-05:00 — #2
I'd love to see how you arrive at your position on Israel and that the church is Biblical Israel....
fred_benjamin — 2017-12-06T14:34:50-05:00 — #3
Ah, this is the problem (as I see it) with the "spiritualization" of scripture. I interpret the bible literally so Israel is the state of Israel composed of a Jews. You think he church is Israel.
The Problem with Spiritualizing
Each application requires taking the Bible literally. Without reading the Bible at face value teachers can teach anything. This latter wrong use of scripture has been described by others as spiritualizing the Bible.
Spiritualizing can be defined as detaching the Bible from its literal sense by:
• Removing the contextual limitations so that any passage in scripture can be used to help anyone in any way at any time.
• Diminishing any sense of dogmatism. No one can fully understand God, and so no one can claim to know right or wrong, truth, or good and bad for everyone.
• Making the Bible a mystical book interpreted by ones feelings and emotions. There is no absolute meaning.
• A spiritualization of the Scriptures doesn’t have any authority.
• Allegorized interpretations are not based on anything objective. They can’t be verified. They are based solely on the subjective preferences and whims of the interpreter’s imagination. This becomes obvious when you hear another person teach on the same passage and they have an entirely different twist on the story. One person says that such and such a thing represents this, while another person says it really represents this. This is one of the reasons allegorized interpretations are dangerous. There are no guidelines, or boundaries.
Spiritualizing will occur when people fail to let God be true, see God is good, or rightly divide the scripture.
Without taking the Bible “at its word” there is no fact of history. Spiritualization presents the Bible as fictional stories without any basis in true history or events.
Without God saying what he means to say there is no reason to reconcile the doctrinal differences through right division.
Without real figures in a real context then good and bad exists only in the eye of the spiritualizing interpreter.
Outcome of Spiritualization ... a banana can represent a camel, a baseball can represent grapes, and the Church can be Israel
When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense.
dave_l — 2017-12-06T14:54:44-05:00 — #4
There are many ways to explain this. One is Paul's teaching in Romans 11 about the removal of the unbelieving branches from Israel and God's replacing them with believing gentiles. Notice the root is Israel from which the unbelievers are removed and the believers are grafted into. Also when God abolished circumcision, he abolished the ritual that made one the covenant seed of Abraham and Isaac.
dave_l — 2017-12-06T15:00:19-05:00 — #5
Paul teaches the church is Israel. God removed the unbelievers from Israel (the Church) and made them gentiles when he abolished circumcision. Some are being grafted back into Israel (the Church) as believers during the times of the gentiles.
david_taylor_jr — 2017-12-06T15:11:26-05:00 — #6
I don't see how this equates the church with Israel. They are not the same thing.
fred_benjamin — 2017-12-06T16:53:05-05:00 — #7
Agreed, there is no correlation.
fred_benjamin — 2017-12-06T16:58:17-05:00 — #8
Israel: Literal or Spiritual
Israel can be shown to be “literal” if the following three points can be established.
1. Does God Promise Israel Permanent Existence as a Nation
The Abrahamic Covenant was established by God with Abraham and his physical descendants, Isaac, Jacob and the people of Israel. (Genesis 15:18). Genesis 17:4 “Behold, my covenant is with you, and you shall be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations … 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. The fact that God established the Abrahamic Covenant with the physical descendants of Abraham is made even more clear in Genesis 17:19, 21. God reestablished the promises of the covenant with Abraham’s physical grandson, Jacob (Genesis 28:13-17; 35:9-12; 48:3-4). The instructions which Joseph, Abraham’s great-grandson, gave at the end of his life clearly indicate that he understood the Abrahamic Covenant to have been made with Abraham and his physical descendants (Genesis 50:24 And Joseph said to his brothers, “I am about to die, but God will visit you and bring you up out of this land to the land that he swore to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.”). (Jeremiah 30:31; Jeremiah 46:27-28; Amos 9:8b; Romans 11:28b-29) (Also see Palestinian Covenant)
2. Does God Promise Israel Permanent Ownership of the Promised Land
God made national promises concerning Israel. God promised to make a great nation of Abraham’s physical descendants (Genesis 12:2), to give the land of Canaan from the river of Egypt to the river Euphrates to Abraham’s physical descendants forever (Genesis 12:7; 13:14-15; 15:18-21; 17:8), and to give the Abrahamic Covenant to his descendants for an everlasting covenant (Genesis 17:7, Genesis 17:19). The fact that God promised to give Abraham’s physical descendants the land of Canaan forever and the covenant for an everlasting covenant demands that Israel never perish as a people. Should Israel ever perish as a nation, it could not possess the land forever, and its Abrahamic Covenant could not be everlasting.
3. Was God’s Covenants to Give Israel Permanent Existence in the Promised Land Conditional
If the Abrahamic Covenant is unconditional then every promise of that covenant must be fulfilled including the promises that Israel would be given forever the land described in Genesis 15:18 and that the Abrahamic Covenant would be an everlasting covenant for Israel. It would mean that the biblical prophecies concerning the future of Israel and its land are to be interpreted literal and that the Dispensational-Premillennial view of those prophecies is correct.
The covenant is shown to be unconditional because:
• Genesis 22:16-18, Genesis 26:3-5 – although these appear to indicate conditionality; years before that God formally established the covenant with Abraham in Genesis 15. Conditions cannot be added later. (Galatians 3:15)
• When the covenant was formally established, only God passed between the halves of the animals while Abraham slept.
• God later confirmed the covenant with Isaac (Genesis 26:1-4) and with Jacob (Genesis 28:13-15; 35:9-12; 48:3-4). Joseph regarded the covenant to be in effect (Genesis 50:24-26). Moses was told the covenant was in effect (Exodus 2:24; 6:2-8; Deuteronomy 4:25-31) as was David (1 Chronicles 16:15-18)
• The Holy Spirit indicated the covenant was in effect in Luke 167-75
• Peter indicated the covenant was in effect in Acts 3:12-15 + Acts 3:25-26)
• Hebrews 6:13-18
Partial Historic Fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant
Parts of the Abrahamic Covenant have been fulfilled historically already.
a) Personally, God did bless Abraham. God has made Abraham’s name great with Judaism, Christianity and Islam all respecting his name. God has given him physical descendants: the Jew and Arabs.
b) Nationally, God has made a great nation (Israel) of Abraham’s physical descendants. He did give the promised land to Israel after it exodus from Egypt and they have never perished as a people.
c) Universally, God has made great blessing available to all families of earth through Abraham’s physical line of descent. Redemption and other blessings have been provided through Jesus Christ; the Scriptures produced primarily by Jews.
bkmitchell — 2017-12-06T17:44:00-05:00 — #9
If Paul really taught the above it is highly strange that when speaking of Israel in Romans 11:28 he states that "From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers"(NASB). Clearly, the Church cannot be enemies of the gospel for to be a part of the church is to accept and believe the gospel.
dave_l — 2017-12-06T19:06:22-05:00 — #10
The church predates Israel, made up of believers only. Later during Abraham's time becoming a physical institution comprised of believers and unbelievers alike. This through the rite of circumcision. And called the congregation of the Lord over 300 times in the OT. Also called the Church in the wilderness in Acts. But under the New Covenant, God got rid of the physical Institutional State Church making it believers only and global under Jesus.
dave_l — 2017-12-06T19:09:59-05:00 — #11
Paul is speaking of the defrocked unbelieving Jews whom God removed from Israel. Paul was one of them and uses himself as an example for those who later became and will become reunited to Israel through faith in Christ.
dave_l — 2017-12-06T19:10:43-05:00 — #12
Yes, and the Church is Israel under Christ.
Yes, and Abraham and others saw Canaan as a symbol of heaven. Furthermore, forever cannot exist on an earth to be consumed by fire. And David's kingdom is forever, not merely 1000 years.
It matters not. God abolished physical Israel when he abolished circumcision on the cross. The only Jews or Israel today are believers in Christ. And as I said, Abraham and others saw something much greater in what the promises symbolized.
david_taylor_jr — 2017-12-06T21:02:10-05:00 — #13
That is factually not true. Jesus said He will build His church, future tense.
He did not abolish circumcision.
That is just an ignorant statement.
dave_l — 2017-12-07T04:09:50-05:00 — #14
The church existed first as believers only. Think of Abel and Job or those listed in Hebrews 11. It became a visible institutional church, a mixture of unbelievers and believers in Abraham's day through the rite of circumcision. This state of the Church continued under Moses as God used the unbelievers to serve and protect the believers until the time of the Messiah. Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross returning the church to the believers only condition. And it was in this condition he would build his church. No longer would he build it as a mixture of believers and unbelievers alike. Build = Greek "to help improve ability to function in living responsibly and effectively, strengthen, build up, make more able."
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 696). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
He rendered it ineffective. It no longer made one a physical Jew or Israelite.
“For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.” (Romans 2:28–29)
david_taylor_jr — 2017-12-07T06:56:54-05:00 — #15
No it didn't. Read the Bible.
Circumcision was not abolished, read Paul's writings.
That is talking about somethingn completely different Dave. One's race doesn't all of a sudden change because of the cross.
dave_l — 2017-12-07T07:02:42-05:00 — #16
If you define Church as an assembly, it certainly did. And any believer is a member of the assembly of the Lord.
Jesus abolished the Old Covenant and all of its rituals on the cross.
The Jews are not a race. There is only one race, the human race. Jews are a religion centered around one family but not confined to that family.
bkmitchell — 2017-12-07T09:03:29-05:00 — #17
Paul is speakings of this:
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2**God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew**.(Romans 11:1 NASB95)
and again he states:
I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous (Romans 11:11 NASB95)
And, then speaking of the future he states:
26and so a**ll Israel will be saved**; just as it is written,
“THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”
27“THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
**WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS**.”
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable(Romans 11:26-28 NASB 95)
dave_l — 2017-12-07T10:02:08-05:00 — #18
And Paul says if they convert to the New Covenant and accept Jesus, God will have grafted them back into Israel. Which they are presently excluded from.
david_taylor_jr — 2017-12-07T12:23:36-05:00 — #19
Then why did Paul have Timothy circumcised?
Oh good grief, people group then. Sheesh Dave.
dave_l — 2017-12-07T13:08:39-05:00 — #20
To appease the Jews.
Many think the Jews are a race. But God has made of one blood all people.
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