bkmitchell — 2017-09-17T21:37:58-04:00 — #1
According to how you understand Adam and Eve narrative found in Genesis:
(1)Were Adam and Eve immortals before eating the fruit from the tree?
(2) What textual and/or grammatical evidence in Genesis leads you to your conclusion?
(3) What Scriptural Texts outside of Genesis lead you to/or support your concussion?
(4) What sources outside of Scripture reinforce your understanding?
david_taylor_jr — 2017-09-17T22:12:19-04:00 — #2
I'll go into more detail later, but yes, they were immortal before eating the fruit. The text says if you eat it, then you will surely die (paraphrase).
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-09-18T02:51:01-04:00 — #3
From my understanding of the record itself I would say that Adam and Eve were not immortal.
I would say that God's design for mankind was to live on earth and afterwards be changed and receive immortality to live in the presence of God (heaven). With the fall, and on the very day that Adam "ate of the fruit which God had commanded not to eat", Adam was "died the death" (lit. as God had put it in His words to Adam)! Now, since Adam did not drop dead on that day in regards to his earthly life, the "death" he died was that he no longer was bound for eternal life, but rather was under condemnation.
I think, most theologies ignore the text with God's emphatic statement that Adam would "die on that very day" when he sinned and interpret it as if it was talking about the end of his earthly life and then say, he "started to physically die" on that day. Reason for such an idea, which contradicts what the text itself states, seems to be that the word "die / death" is understood as "the end of earthly life" and it is assumed that Adam and Eve prior to that day actually "had eternal life (were immortal) on earth". The facts stated in the record about Adam's fall state differently.
Also, consider the truth from 1Tim 6:16, where it is stated that God alone has immortality .... and since Adam and Eve were not God, they could not have had immortality either.
gao_lu — 2017-09-18T03:25:27-04:00 — #4
Hmmmm. Not so easy to answer. Immortality by definition isn't something that can be lost, or is it? If it can't be lost, they Adam and Eve lost whatever they had--which must be different from the eternal life we gain through Christ. Looking forward to more thoughts on this.
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-09-18T04:05:32-04:00 — #5
Indeed ...another indication that Adam and Eve were not immortal beings prior to the time Adam sinned.
I would say whatever they lost is the same any human loses when they sin ... "life in eternity in the presence of God" after this earthly life is finished .. and which a person will receive from God on the grounds of the accomplished finished redemptive work of Christ when they believe on Him.
dave_l — 2017-09-18T05:19:39-04:00 — #6
I see Adam first in a state of temporary probation that would end in one of two ways. Not eating of the forbidden fruit and thereby earning right to eat from the tree of life and living forever. Or eating of the forbidden fruit and dying spiritually and later physically after God fulfilled his plans for Adam as progenitor of his race.
God created him sinless but with a nature that wanted to sin if given a law. So Adam incurred the guilt of the transgression as any of us would do in his place. So God created the universe fitted for death with everything from carnivores to entropy and built in mortality.
will_scholten — 2017-09-18T06:34:10-04:00 — #7
I agree, if they were, there would have been no reason for having the tree of life in the garden.
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-09-18T07:57:22-04:00 — #8
According to the record in Gen 2:16-17, Adam was permitted to freely eath of every tree of the garden, except for one tree, the trooe of knowledge of good and evil. (Gen 2:16-17 - "16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"
I do not see anything in the text about not being allowed to eat from the tree of life and earning the right to eat from that tree at some time ...
How does this idea "compute" with the statement of Scripture that when God looked at what He had created and made, it was all very good ?
dave_l — 2017-09-18T08:16:16-04:00 — #9
Eating from the tree of life was no doubt approved by God along with all the other trees. But conditioned on not eating from the forbidden tree.
What is good to God is repugnant to most.
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-18T09:49:50-04:00 — #10
In the sense of the term: Mortal and Immortal, Adam and Eve were not Immortal.
Mortal means to be subject to death, Immortality belongs to divine beings.
If Adam ate of the fruit, he would surely die, eternally & Physically.
Adam, if he was immortal would not be "subject to death"
I do believe had Adam not eaten of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge he would have been, and may have even been able to then, eat of the Fruit of the Tree of Life, as there were no commandments given about the Tree of Life. Once he chose to disobey then the Tree of Life was made to be off limits by removing him and his wife from the Garden.
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-09-18T11:30:07-04:00 — #11
God had said, Adam would surely die on that day he ate of the fruit ... well, did he die physically on that day, or did he live on for several centuries after that? Thus it follows that Adam did not die on that day in regards to his physical/earthly life, but died a death in regard to some other type of life ...
I don't get how you and others arrive at "he would surely die, eternally & physically" .... on what is this "& physically" based?
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-18T16:57:56-04:00 — #12
For me its simple, If he had not eaten of the tree of knowledge, he would have eaten of the Tree of Life;
Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
So as a result of his disobedience, he would surely die physically, because he would no longer have access to the Tree of Life.
He also immediately lost his eternal life with the Father.
bill_coley — 2017-09-18T18:12:32-04:00 — #13
To my reading, life expectancy is not at issue in the Genesis story; obedience is. I see no indication in the text that the storyteller wants us to believe their disobedience lost Adam and Eve immortality; what it lost them was their status as creations of God who had not violated God's commands.
The punishment God initially laid out for that sin was death "in the day" of their failure (Genesis 2.16-17); but that punishment is only a small part of the justice God metes out after they eat the forbidden fruit. Eve's lists of punishments (Genesis 3.16) contains no mention of death; Adam's (Genesis 3.17-19) references death, but in a manner more matter-of-fact than punitive.
Because I don't believe life expectancy is at issue for the storyteller, I conclude that he/she/they likely imputed to the Adam and Eve characters the mortality common to themselves and all other humans.
will_scholten — 2017-09-19T06:24:11-04:00 — #14
A day is like a 1000 years, and a 1000 years is as a day!
So he literally died just as YHWH said he would, before he was 1000 years old.
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-09-19T09:12:50-04:00 — #15
Observing context to any passage of Scripture or any passage or statement of anyone's words or any writing is the key to correctly understand what is said ....
The passages concerning "one day like as 1000 years and 1000 years like as a day" are NOT at all indicating anything about it being a statement which should be understood literally !! In other words, one day is NOT a thousand years, just as a thousand years are not one day.
To try and use these statements out of context to actually mean something they do not mean in the first place, is non-sense .... the same non-sense I would be making if I erroneously claimed that Adam lived actually not 930 years but 930 000 years !!
will_scholten — 2017-09-19T21:06:56-04:00 — #16
I'm not to sure about that, I have 2 witnesses
3 You turn people back to dust,
saying, “Return to dust, you mortals.”
4 A thousand years in your sight
are like a day that has just gone by,
or like a watch in the night.
The New International Version. (2011). (Ps 90:3–4). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. d
The New International Version. (2011). (2 Pe 3:8–10). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
If you agree with the genealogies in scripture, you will see we live on a young earth.
The world will be around for 1 week, 6 days 6000 years , then the 7th day (7000 years) Yahusha will return.
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
The Holy Bible: King James Version. (2009). (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version., Ge 2:17). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
How do you "surely die"?
It does not say, you will spiritually die!!!