bkmitchell — 2017-08-10T20:13:05-04:00 — #1
What does Hebrews 2:5 mean? ”For He has not put the world to come,
of which we speak, in subjection to angels.” What does it say about the
world at the time the passage was written? Was the world in subjection to angels at that time? And does it mean that we should not expect to find angels today? Or if we don‘t find angels today, does this mean that the age has indeed changed over?
Question # 20
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-08-11T02:29:22-04:00 — #2
The point of the context is not about "the ages to come" or about "angels in various ages", but it is about CHRIST, and that he was not an angel ..... and the aspect expressed in v. 5 is only one argument to clarify that Messiah Jesus was/is NOT an angel
Also, the verse itself does not speak about whether or not angels existed in the then age and would exist in the age to coming, but clarifies that God "has NOT PUT the world to come IN SUBJECTION to angels".
bkmitchell — 2017-08-11T02:52:18-04:00 — #3
So, would that then for you mean that at the time the book of Hebrews was written the author did not believe he/she was, yet, in the world to come?
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-08-11T03:19:31-04:00 — #4
When a writer speaks of "a world to come" does he express that he is already in that world to come? language follows certain rules to express certain things ... if I now speak of "days to come", am I speaking of "now" already being "days to come" ??
If I were using an expression indicating "yet future", but would actually mean "already present", would you consider such use of grammar a mistake (using a wrong tense)? or would that not matter, and I could use present for future, future for present, etc ?
bkmitchell — 2017-08-11T03:41:47-04:00 — #5
Great points and this why the author of the "bible investigation" website asked (or his readers asked) the thought provoking questions on Hebrews 2:5 I quoted in the OP.
One might also ask:
The world to come, whatever that is will not be subjected to Angels, but noticing that Hebrews tells us that information one may wonder what about whatever age the writer of Hebrews was living in was it subjected to Angels? Was, there any time period in which the world was subjected to Angels? And, what kind of time period are we living in now? We, clearly live far in the future from the perspective of the writer of Hebrews. Have we now entered the so called "world to come"? If, not what time period or we living in?
I personally think it is easy to read over or skim over passage like Hebrews 2:5 without actually noticing the intriguing details. So, whenever questions like these are raised that cause me to re-read a verse a new I find it very refreshing and a lot of fun even if it is impossible for us to answer the questions. Anyway, I hadn't given Hebrews 2:5 much thought before and thought it might be fun discussion.
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-08-11T04:23:52-04:00 — #6
"one may wonder" ... yes, one may wonder a lot of things, but not everything one may wonder really makes sense. Observing the context in Hebrews 2 in which this remark is made, these questions would not occur to me as having any "validity" ...
When I tell you that currently Mr. Trump is president of the USA, one may wonder if perhaps there was a Mr. Trump as president in previous decades, or may if there will be a Mr. Trump as president any time in the future .... but how much sense would such "wonderings" make in light of the simple statement that currently a Mr. Trump is president ? None! Such questions would not be worth consideration in light of the statement made ... such questions may have some merit if the context of the original statement had something relating to such, but they don't in the context of the statement as it is now.
This question has more merit because it does relate to the mentioned "world to come", as that was then future and we live in the then future. From the statement in Heb 2 alone, however, I do not think that one can answer these questions beyond the fact that Heb 2 mentions "a world to come" (something in the then future) but it does not specify further whether our day and time are part of that mentioned "world to come"
I agree that reading in detail what actually is written is a necessary component of arriving at a proper and correct understanding of any statement ... whereas a lack of noticing what is actually stated and reading over it may lead to incorrect understanding. I would however caution of "noticing details" which perhaps are actually not even there ....
bkmitchell — 2017-08-11T05:51:29-04:00 — #7
Exactly, and this is one of the points of having discussions and raising issues. Often, on these forums, I run across questions and points of view that I would not have thought of. The author as far as I can tell is into apologetics and deals with honest questions people raise.
I tried to paraphrase the questions the author was asking and I think these questions are good for exercise.
Thanks, this is the type of exchange that I believe is healthy. and I agree that this is an unanswerable question.
I agree 100% with the above, and I believe this applies to all media including these forums.
dave_l — 2017-08-11T07:54:35-04:00 — #8
Isn't he speaking of the powers and principalities that rule the world as God's agents?
bkmitchell — 2017-08-11T18:42:22-04:00 — #9
Thank you for chiming in Dave!
You have indeed raised an interesting possibility and one which sounds Pauline.
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-06T17:58:04-04:00 — #10
This has to do with the Current Ruling of the World by Angels, Lucifer being their Chief and the Coming age, Ruled by only the Messiah.
Man was intended to Rule the World Genesis 1:28
Man through their sin, delivered the dominion to Satan: Matthew 4:9
Dominion of the nations was Also Given to the Angelic Counsel Deuteronomy 32:8
Daniel 10:13 - princes referring to Angels, Michael being one of the chief princes -
Because the angels did not all Judge righteous Judgement as Paul teaches we will in the end Judge them. I'll provide more scripture later but i will leave this for now.
hamilton_ramos — 2017-09-13T12:06:08-04:00 — #11
I agree with Wolfgang, the world to come will be in subjection to Jesus Christ.
It is important for us to start relating culturally to this new world to come, just as Jesus prescribed, different values, rules, customs, divine love being the driving force.
I like the excerpts in the home page in L7, I share one that hits it when defining the "world to come":
Peace and grace.