bkmitchell — 2017-08-17T07:43:47-04:00 — #1
12 Truly, truly I say to you, the one who believes in me, the works that I am doing he will do also, and he will do greater works* than these because I am going to the Father.
Harris, W. Hall, III et al., eds. The Lexham English Bible. Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012. Print.
How do you understand John 14:12?
Do 'greater works' simply mean more, or extra works?
or. Do 'greater works' mean works that are superior to those Jesus did?
And, if the latter what type of 'works' would be considered greater and why?
dave_l — 2017-08-17T09:00:04-04:00 — #2
This is perplexing but I think the NET Bible notes might shed some light on this.
"What are the greater deeds that Jesus speaks of, and how is this related to his going to the Father? It is clear from both John 7:39 and 16:7 that the Holy Spirit will not come until Jesus has departed. After Pentecost and the coming of the Spirit to indwell believers in a permanent relationship, believers would be empowered to perform even greater deeds than those Jesus did during his earthly ministry. When the early chapters of Acts are examined, it is clear that, from a numerical standpoint, the deeds of Peter and the other Apostles surpassed those of Jesus in a single day (the day of Pentecost). On that day more were added to the church than had become followers of Jesus during the entire three years of his earthly ministry. And the message went forth not just in Judea, Samaria, and Galilee, but to the farthest parts of the known world. This understanding of what Jesus meant by “greater deeds” is more probable than a reference to “more spectacular miracles.” Certainly miraculous deeds were performed by the apostles as recounted in Acts, but these do not appear to have surpassed the works of Jesus himself in either degree or number."
Biblical Studies Press. (2005). The NET Bible First Edition; Bible. English. NET Bible.; The NET Bible. Biblical Studies Press.
tyrone_howard — 2017-08-17T11:44:22-04:00 — #3
First we must define greater - then we must define who the 'you' were.
I believer greater meant, not that they would be more spectacular, because what could be more spectacular then providing the deliverance, salvation, and healing to all those who would accept it, by enduring suffering, pain and affliction even unto death - to grant this power. Jesus himself went into the depths of Hell to release prisoners, raised the physically and spiritual dead - healed those from the brink of death to just a slight fever/headache. I'm not sure anything was left. So then By greater it must be speaking of amount.
Which then provides a simple answer, because the Spirit of Jesus, which was inside the flesh of Jesus, now dwells in the believers through the Holy Ghost, then a greater number of people are able to perform these works.
Now of course me and Dave disagree that these Acts still occur today and through other ministries then just the Apostles or Prophets, in fact The Book of Acts has no Amen at the end of it, and my view is this is because The book of acts is not finished being written in the heavens.
dave_l — 2017-08-17T13:16:20-04:00 — #4
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. Jn. 14:12
Here's a thought;
Because of our union with Christ, his works become our works. And the greater works he now performs ruling the nations of the world, the universe and all of nature, we share in by virtue of being his body.
tyrone_howard — 2017-08-17T17:33:46-04:00 — #5
I do like this thought.
I would question whether he rules the nations of this world. A topic for another discussion though.
dave_l — 2017-08-18T06:40:21-04:00 — #6
After the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat at the right hand of God. Mark 16:19
who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels and authorities and powers being made subject to Him. 1 Peter 3:22
She gave birth to a male Child, “who was to rule all nations with an iron scepter.” And her Child was caught up to God and to His throne. Revelation 12:5
Out of His mouth proceeds a sharp sword, with which He may strike the nations. “He shall rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury and wrath of God the Almighty. On His robe and on His thigh He has a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:15–16
which He performed in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principalities, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet and made Him the head over all things for the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all things in all ways. Ephesians 1:20–23 (MEV)
For our fight is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, and against spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Ephesians 6:12 (MEV)
tyrone_howard — 2017-08-18T11:00:49-04:00 — #7
You misunderstood my statement. I do not deny Christ as ruler of all. I deny whether the rulers have Christ in them at all.
dave_l — 2017-08-18T12:58:08-04:00 — #8
Jesus rules over the kingdoms of the world. This includes the most wicked today and in history. The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water; He turns it to any place He will. Proverbs 21:1 (MEV)
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and He does according to His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth. And no one can stay His hand or say to Him, “What have You done?” Daniel 4:35 (MEV)
For God has put in their hearts to fulfill His will, and to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. Revelation 17:17 (MEV)
There are many more, but this helps us to know Jesus is in control.
tyrone_howard — 2017-08-22T19:55:12-04:00 — #9
Again, no doubt whether he's in control but thanks.
dave_l — 2017-08-23T05:22:21-04:00 — #10
The really big question is whether or not Jesus now reigns over the world from David's Throne in heavenly Jerusalem above. Because, only the born again can discern this. Those still looking for a physical kingdom in the future are either deceived or not born again.
“And He said to them, “Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power.”” (Mark 9:1)
“Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly I say to you, unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”” (John 3:3)
“When He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation. Nor will they say, ‘Here it is!’ or ‘There it is!’ For remember, the kingdom of God is within you.”” (Luke 17:20–21)
“But being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of his seed according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, he foresaw this and spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.” (Acts 2:30–31)
tyrone_howard — 2017-08-23T23:18:26-04:00 — #11
This is a really big question for you.Its minimal in priority for me, as I already know the answer. But thanks.
dave_l — 2017-08-24T06:48:46-04:00 — #12
I know the answer. The Big question is for you. Because unless a person is born again, they cannot see the Kingdom of God when it is right in front of them. I see it clearly.
tyrone_howard — 2017-08-24T18:56:03-04:00 — #13
What I see is a person to is who is void any deep spiritual relationships outside of this Forum and resorts to trying to draw others within this discourse forum into a debate/discussion with him about something that he's made up his mind about prematurely; never mind what scriptures teach based on his belief that he clearly sees. I use to be of this thought pattern but then I realized I do not know God, I do not Know Jesus, it is him who knows me. I am beginning in a relationship with him and even at 40+ years it will be minuscule to the amount of time he has known himself and me. Who am I to say that I'm so close to Jesus, and see so clearly that I can't have missed something. So rather then enter into a discussion with someone who knows it all, I'll choose to place my attention and time elsewhere more beneficial to my growth as a believer.
Thank you for sharing your Views.
dave_l — 2017-08-25T04:43:03-04:00 — #14
You are judging me according to your own heart. If I say something that is incorrect or not true. Scripture alone should make the call.
hamilton_ramos — 2017-09-13T14:09:57-04:00 — #15
From another post:
Now a very interesting topic spins off: Greater works done by believers...
There is a promise in the Bible: you and your family will be saved if you believe and comply with the requirements of the New Covenant.
Could it mean that if you really put your faith in Jesus Christ, and that truly earnestly ask God to save your family, He can change the nature of a tare to that of a wheat?
I know there is nothing impossible for God, so just in case, if there is a tare in your family, still fast and pray, and get close to the throne of mercy to ask God for a bigger work: to change that person so that tare status can be changed.
Just remember that the last say is God's, not yours, it is His Kingdom, not yours.
I would like for many persons to be saved, but I pray God to save them only if it is in His plan, as in not forcing Him to my will.
Hope this provides a different angle for research and reflection.
Peace and grace.