bkmitchell — 2017-10-29T02:05:13-04:00 — #1
In your opinion, if Christ is the only way to the Father, what happens to those who lived before the time of Christ? Do you believe the Bible address this matter or is it silent on this issue?
dave_l — 2017-10-29T06:25:16-04:00 — #2
There is no salvation apart from Christ's atoning death on the cross, and his perfect righteousness imputed to those God chose in his mercy to save. Mostly these lucky souls are characterized as having faith. Which God only gives to those whom he saves.This would include Abel, Job and his friends, Abraham and all of the faithful of all time.
But the early believers did not have the fullest revelation about their salvation as the New Testament provides. But all are saved by grace in Christ, who was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
justin_gatlin — 2017-10-29T13:10:33-04:00 — #3
Every time someone was saved in the Old Testament, it was in response to the promise of Christ they had. Examples:
Abraham was declared righteous when He believed God would send the Son.
Adam was clothed with the skin of an animal (after the shedding of blood), when he named Eve "Mother," in confidence in the Genesis 3:15 promise.
tyrone_howard — 2017-10-29T16:12:42-04:00 — #4
There was no salvation before Christ. They went to their grave with the promise of salvation realised the day Jesus went to the grave to preach salvation in Sheoul.
They were in this place untill that day according to Scripture with the exception of three souls. Two who never saw death. One who Michael the archangel went to contend for.
will_scholten — 2017-10-29T19:23:17-04:00 — #5
I think 1st Cor. 15 touches on this;
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.
20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (1 Co 15:18–26). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
We are taught our sins are already forgotten, but I think that is in error;
A Vision of Joshua the High Priest
3 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. 2 And the LORD said to Satan, “The LORD rebuke you, O Satan! The LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is not this a brand plucked from the fire?” 3 Now Joshua was standing before the angel, clothed with filthy garments. 4 And the angel said to those who were standing before him, “Remove the filthy garments from him.” And to him he said, “Behold, I have taken your iniquity away from you, and I will clothe you with pure vestments.” 5 And I said, “Let them put a clean turban on his head.” So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD was standing by.
6 And the angel of the LORD solemnly assured Joshua, 7 “Thus says the LORD of hosts: If you will walk in my ways and keep my charge, then you shall rule my house and have charge of my courts, and I will give you the right of access among those who are standing here. 8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, you and your friends who sit before you, for they are men who are a sign: behold, I will bring my servant the Branch. 9 For behold, on the stone that I have set before Joshua, on a single stone with seven eyes, I will engrave its inscription, declares the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of this land in a single day. 10 In that day, declares the LORD of hosts, every one of you will invite his neighbor to come under his vine and under his fig tree.”
The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Zec 3:1–10). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
This is taken place at a "Day of Atonement" that is still to come, Yahusha is filthy with our sins.
11 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.
4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, 18 of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 19 He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back. 20 By faith Isaac invoked future blessings on Jacob and Esau. 21 By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, at the end of his life, made mention of the exodus of the Israelites and gave directions concerning his bones.
23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. 24 By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them.
29 By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as on dry land, but the Egyptians, when they attempted to do the same, were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. 31 By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies.
32 And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets— 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. 35 Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. 36 Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated— 38 of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Heb 11:1–40). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
They knew there eternal reward was coming, when we who have died will ALL be raised when Yahusha returns, then after judgment, when we all pass under the same rod, will go to our eternal destination!
dave_l — 2017-10-30T07:15:04-04:00 — #6
Faith IS salvation. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. This means all believers of all time lived in a Saved state. Hebrews 11 lists many from Abel on who had salvation. Indeed, from eternity.
Jesus said any who believes on him HAS eternal life. Eternal life is God's life without beginning or end. “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,” (Ephesians 1:4–5)
tyrone_howard — 2017-10-30T10:49:50-04:00 — #7
Faith IS NOT Salvation.
Salvation is through Jesus Christ. 1 Way 1 Door. You have to take that faith and put it into Jesus Christ. Not just the promise but the actual shedding of blood. Without it there is no remission of Sins.
dave_l — 2017-10-30T10:56:38-04:00 — #8
“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” (Hebrews 11:1) It is a fruit of the Holy Spirit “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22) “He who believes in the Son has eternal life. He who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” (John 3:36)
= no salvation at all. Because human faith is not biblical faith. Plus faith without works does not exist. So you believe salvation is by works.
tyrone_howard — 2017-10-30T11:05:45-04:00 — #9
funny, When i cranked my car before I was saved I had faith it would start. It did. What do you know. Must have had the Holy Ghost then.
dave_l — 2017-10-30T11:08:30-04:00 — #10
This only shows that you do not understand the difference between biblical faith and what carnal minds call faith in everyday life.
tyrone_howard — 2017-10-30T11:16:49-04:00 — #11
No it shows you make up words. Like scientist, you declare a conclusion then make up stuff to get to a starting point. Creative. Just pointless.
dave_l — 2017-10-30T11:39:06-04:00 — #12
If you have biblical faith, you would know what I'm talking about. You need to have faith before you can know the difference.
tyrone_howard — 2017-10-30T11:57:05-04:00 — #13
Right. Cop out. If you can't explain it, then you don't know it well enough or as I hold firmly to, its A Dave Definition. (DOUBLE D)
dave_l — 2017-10-30T11:59:58-04:00 — #14
Are you calling me a liar?
tyrone_howard — 2017-10-30T12:02:07-04:00 — #15
I'm saying you are wrong.
dave_l — 2017-10-30T13:22:01-04:00 — #16
What I'm saying is that human faith is not biblical faith. Little kids believe in Santa Claus. Because people naturally believe lies. Biblical faith comes from experiencing the Holy Spirit in the heart. And is as real as anything you experience with the five senses. This of course means, you must first be saved before you can have faith or believe.
tyrone_howard — 2017-10-30T13:55:39-04:00 — #17
I disagree. Not only I, but God disagrees with you. You are welcome to maintain your position though
God gave every man, not just saved men, a measure of faith.
that faith must be placed in God's plan of Salvation, Jesus Christ.
Often times people misplace their faith then ask for more; like placing in santa clause for Joy; but we have more then we need.
There is also a Gift of Faith, the Holy Ghost gives according to His Will to accomplish the purpose of the ministry in one's life.
Fruits of the Spirit, i.e Joy Peace, Faithfulness are great, and come by way of the Holy Ghost. These differ in their role in our lives and are apart from Ministry specific Gifts, or the Measure in which God gave to every man.
rule of Thumb: Nothing you believe can contradict even a single verse of Gods Word. All men be Liars but God be the truth
dave_l — 2017-10-30T14:04:04-04:00 — #18
False. Paul is addressing believers about ego problems. I beseech you therefore, brethren,....“For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.” (Romans 12:3)
tyrone_howard — 2017-10-30T14:10:02-04:00 — #19
No. Paul is addressing the self righteousness of Believers to think that they are above others because of a truth they accepted; for the Context of the scripture is this: The Therefore used, draws a conclusion of an aforementioned Point. A point to which Paul wrote an "amen" to distinguish the completion of principle at the previous chapter.
Romans 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
He then explains this refusal to be self righteous is of necessity because EVERY MAN, not just those who are saved have a measure of Faith, you are grafted in simply because you've placed yours in Christ Jesus.
dave_l — 2017-10-30T14:11:00-04:00 — #20
= those he was speaking to.
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