wolfgang_schneider — 2017-09-08T02:54:41-04:00 — #1
in a recent topic, the following was mentioned:
Did Paul actually write "whatever is not of faith is sin"? If so, what did he mean with "whatever"? what is meant with "of faith"?
In case, someone doesn't understand my questions, some further thoughts in form of questions:
Does "whatever" always mean "everything without exception"? does "whatever" mean "everything within a certain context/category"? does "whatever"? etc ...
Is the word "faith" used in Scripture always with the exact same meaning? is the word "faith" the same as "believing / belief"? is the word "faith" used with slightly different meanings in different contexts/passages? what is "faith" ("believing")?
Just a few questions to hopefully help keep further exchanges on topic ....
justin_gatlin — 2017-09-08T05:02:28-04:00 — #2
In context it is clear that whatever violates our conscience is sin. Faith is not general faith, but the belief something is permissible. Only Christians are really being considered in the chapter, so it is really a restatement that whoever whoever doubts is condemned if he eats.
dave_l — 2017-09-08T06:52:23-04:00 — #3
Faith works by love Galatians 5:6. So it is impossible to have faith otherwise. If Christians doubt, it is because doubt stems from hatred which underlies all works of the flesh. So we teeter in and out of faith and doubt, just as we teeter in and out of Love and hatred. But doubt and hatred are always sin in this regard.
Human generated faith is not in view here, because ISIS fully believes in what they are doing which is obviously sinful. And Christians doubt much of what they hear on the news and this is good. But faith as a fruit of the Holy Spirit is inseparable from God's love, and it is something he gives us in matters pertaining to him, and not something we give to him.
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-08T10:03:54-04:00 — #4
I think @Justin_Gatlin Explained it well.
Contextually its talking about our God Given Conscience as a believer; If you doubt whether something is Good/bad and do it anyway, that is Sin. Men ought to always pray, and know when a peace has come in regards to a decision that our steps/actions be ordained of God, for we aren't our own creatures anymore.
dave_l — 2017-09-08T10:18:59-04:00 — #5
Paul states a fact. What ever is not of faith is sin". And then proves it using the brother weak in faith as an example. Hebrews says the same; “For the gospel was preached to us as well as to them. But the word preached did not benefit them, because it was not mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed have entered this rest, as He has said, “As I have sworn in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ” However, His works have been finished since the creation of the world.” (Hebrews 4:2–3)
Without faith is is impossible to please God = whatever is not of faith is sin.
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-08T10:23:51-04:00 — #6
Paul writes a Sentence, inspired by God, along with the other sentences in the verse, Inspired by God. You cannot refute the others, which are equal in meaning to take one out of context, which is contrary to the rest of scripture.
dave_l — 2017-09-08T10:24:43-04:00 — #7
And Paul stated this inspired fact; "whatever is not of faith is sin".
gao_lu — 2017-09-08T18:17:58-04:00 — #8
Inspired fact "Whatever is not of faith is sin."
Faith is belief, confidence -which is something humans do. Not a puppet activity. In fact, emotion isn't even something you can pretend in a puppet. YOu could show actions or expression responding to a emotion, but not the emotion. Faith is really faith and it really happens in humans.
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-09-09T03:16:31-04:00 — #9
I am wondering if it wouldn't be more profitable for an exchange about the statement in Rom 4:23 that the questions I asked in the original post be addressed?
In various posts the term "faith" is used by different people, and it seems to me that the term itself has quite different meanings for different people and thus they talk "alongside each other", rather than actually having a real exchange on the topic ....
What about the questions I mentioned above =>
Is the word "faith" used in Scripture always with the exact same meaning? If so, what would be the definition of that meaning? If not, what would be different meanings in different contexts? Can different meanings from different contexts just be exchanged from one context to another?
What is the meaning of "whatever" in the statement in Rom 4:23? does the context clarify and determine its meaning?
I would think that observing such more objective points would be helpful to gain a proper understanding of the statement made there in Rom 4:23 ... independent of any subjective theologies or denominational dogmas folks may currently have in mind ....
dave_l — 2017-09-09T06:32:12-04:00 — #10
Belief is one thing, faith is another. ISIS believes in what they're doing but they do not have faith. Because faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. If you want to split hairs, faith is what moves Christians to believe. And it comes from a supernatural source, God's word combined with the Holy Spirit.
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-09T07:29:42-04:00 — #11
Good luck. People tend to prefer to not answer these types of questions about words having meanings in themselves outside of dogmas or doctrines because it would uproot the doctrine itself.
Give me Some time later today I'll address this issues as best I can, using original language study to see if we miss something in that (if one our fellow constitutes haven't already of course) knowing all will not come to agree.
Its easier to teach someone wrong, then convince them they have been taught wrong
dave_l — 2017-09-09T08:05:33-04:00 — #12
As I understand. Faith is something God gives to people through the New Birth. It is the substance and evidence of things not seen Hebrews 11:1. And it prompts people to believe.
Human belief comes from logic, sentiment, observation and contact by the physical senses. Whatever is not of faith is sin. But this does not mean whatever is of belief is righteousness. Because ISIS fully believes in what they are doing - based on human belief.
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-09-09T10:09:42-04:00 — #13
Of course, they have faith in what they're doing ...
Sure, they do not have faith in the God of the Bible, nor in His only begotten Son, nor in the Bible as divinely inspired revelation, etc .... but they do have faith in what they are doing !
NO ... faith/confidence/believing is NOT a fruit of the spirit. Faithfulness is a fruit of the spirit.
Unfortunately, your incorrect reading and interpretation of Gal 5 leads to an incorrect understanding of various other matters.
No splitting of hairs needed ... faith/believing is what every man is able to do and has been enabled by God to do. It is not some "power" or "enablement" without which a person could not believe.
No ... faith/believing is an action of man's heart and mind.
All people believe, have faith with their mind and heart ... the difference between people is NOT in the believing/faith, but would be in the object of their faith/faith (in other words, some believe information from one source, some believe information from a different source, some believe/have faith in religion "A", some believe/have faith in religion "B")
People either believe/have faith in the information that is the object of their faith, or people doubt (opposite of faith/believing) the information.
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-09-09T10:18:48-04:00 — #14
Any scripture support for this idea? I have not seen such in Scripture .... and I have done detailed studies particularly in each passage in the NT where the Gr. noun "pistis" (believing/faith) and the verb "pisteuo" (to believe/to have faith in) are used
The scripture you mention (Heb 11:1) does not say what you interpret it to say ...
ALL belief/faith is connected to information received, conclusions drawn, observations made, etc. There are differences in the information source and information content .... for example: Information received via the 5 senses from worldly source or information received by divine revelation (such as information revealed and then written down in Scripture). However, the believing/having faith in the information is the same action of the mind and heart ... the outcome is dependent on the information and what is believed.
See my earlier reply to a mention of this example ...
dave_l — 2017-09-09T11:44:47-04:00 — #15
They cannot have faith. It is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. You must prove from scripture that faith is of human origin to make that claim.
Faith produces belief. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen Hebrews 11:1. It is because of faith we can believe.
“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” (Hebrews 11:1)
Substance greek hypostasis = ① the essential or basic structure/nature of an entity, substantial nature, essence, actual being, reality
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 1040). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
gao_lu — 2017-09-09T18:20:56-04:00 — #16
They can have faith. Faith is a response (fruit) to how the Holy Spirit reveals God to the heart of man.
Faith has nothing to do with producing belief.
You are butchering and conflating an Old English word with a Modern English word and definition. The KJV word "substance" meant "essence" or "standing on a matter," or as we say now confidence.
Slightly confusing (but not very) is that hypostasis can mean modern "substance," but as we have shown, it is used multiple times by different writers to mean "confidence," and not a "thing" or substance.
[Dangerous Note: I actually suspect that the Gk overtones of "substance" could be significant here, but that is another story]
Kind of cute, but there is more than one definition for a word and you definitely picked the wrong one.
dave_l — 2017-09-10T05:28:07-04:00 — #17
If faith is of human origin, and if whatever is not of faith is sin, then ISIS is not sinning when they kill innocent people.
wolfgang_schneider — 2017-09-10T06:06:30-04:00 — #18
"to have faith" / "to believe" is independent of WHAT is believed ...the action of the mind and heart is the same, it is also described as "having confidence in", "being convinced of" and it shows itself / is expressed in action taken upon such conviction.
What I believe is irrelevant as far as my "believe" is concerned ... whether I believe the words of a newspaper, the words of a preacher, what I see in TV, what I read in the Bible, what the schoolteacher says, etc ... in each case, I receive information, I evaluate the information, etc. and then I believe it and act upon it (or, of course, if I find it to be unconvincing, false, etc, then I refuse to believe it and do not act upon it)
The action of "believing" / "having faith" does not make everything righteous, just as the act of "not believing" / "not having faith" does not make everything a sin!
The context of a passage or statement will provide the correct understanding of the terms used in a statement or passage ... you appear to generalize part of the statement from Rom 14:23 without regard to its context, and thus arrive at a conclusion not in harmony with what the statement actually says.
dave_l — 2017-09-10T06:08:28-04:00 — #19
Not in the case of biblical faith. It is not belief. It causes people to believe when present. Faith is not faithfulness. It causes people to be faithful.
tyrone_howard — 2017-09-10T07:27:28-04:00 — #20
You insist on using the term biblical faith. This is a made up term, you have coined.
There is faith. God gave every man, sinner and saved a measure of it. It is simply the ability to believe. Whether you believe there is no God(atheism) or a host of Gods(Paganisms) or somewhere in between.
There is a gift of faith, which is given by the Holy Ghost and allows some to believe Jesus for anything according to the Will of God. All claim this but few manifest it.
There is being faithful, often confused with faith. While faith is an act of believing, accepting something to be true. Examples of Faithful is never wavering from a belief, promise or your word.
Everyones whole argument for this hinges upon the discourse to whether or not faith is a fruit of the spirit.
I would proper this:
If faith is a gift of the spirit :This idea would contradict The Lord saying unto everyone is given a measure of faith.
However if we allow ourselves to understand what the fruits of the spirit are, in the usenof faith, as being the unending, never wavering, obedience unto Christ as Faithful then the text, Well done thy Good and faithful servant has more power.
As a man, We want to be ok with sin and yet say we are saved because although man doesn't want to serve God try despise pain(else why would they medicate) and do not desire torment in hell. Christ said multiple ways this is not of him. John speaks of being a liar if one says they are of Christ but dont keep his commandments. Jesus plainly says if you love him, keep his commandments.
A manifestion of the fruit of Holy Ghost is not faith, there is a measure given to every man( a mustard seed amount). A fruit is produced of a tree. The production of the spirit of God planting a seed, watering it in us, growing up to be a good tree is faithfulness to Gods word.
It is only possible to remain faithful to the entirety of Gods word to which you have knowledge of by the Holy Ghost.
Gift of Faith- Power of belief
Faithfully - Loyalty/consistently towards beliefs
If I wasn't on my tablet I would do some bible thumping. Anyone need scriptures for these discourse statements just ask.
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