News & Current Events
tyrone_howard — 2017-07-08T22:43:55-04:00 — #1
Should we condemn women preachers but allow our wives to walk around in men's clothing? Both or neither?
Is it ok for a man to wear a dress? Why or why not?
All scripture is good for reproving and doctrine or just what makes us right as we are? Or both? Or neither?
Should scripture change us, or should we change scripture untill it fits us? Or both? Or neither?
alex_vaughn — 2017-07-08T23:03:39-04:00 — #2
Who says what is men's clothing and what is not? I don't know about your Bible, but mine doesn't have that list. However there are examples of women leaders, prophets, deacon and even an apostle.
tyrone_howard — 2017-07-09T00:45:43-04:00 — #3
I'm not saying this means pants in this instance (although we can get into that too) but more so does this not mean that there is clearly men's clothing and womens clothing?
“A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the Lord your God.” Deuteronomy 22:5
alex_vaughn — 2017-07-09T01:28:26-04:00 — #4
In Ancient Near Eastern cultures, yes there was men and women's clothing. What that is comes from culture, not the Scriptures.
bill_coley — 2017-07-09T01:44:33-04:00 — #5
Tyrone, do you feel similarly directed by the other sartorial verses in Deuteronomy 22? For instance, Deut 22.11 proscribes one's wearing clothing made wool and linen woven together. Is that a guideline you follow? (I don't) Or Deut 22.12 calls for the placement of four tassels on the hem of the garments with which we cover ourselves. Do you abide by that direction? (I don't)
In my view, allegiance to any of these clothing commands basically locks one into compliance with all of them, save for the adoption of some ingenious algorithm by which are chosen the ones not to be followed.
I also am taken by Alex's point about the definition of men's and women's clothing, a definition which is clearly culture-based and the subject of great diversity in the world.
gao_lu — 2017-07-09T08:40:58-04:00 — #6
I have been around a good bit of the world including cultures where people wear nearly nothing. I have not yet seen any culture on earth at present, like the past, where there is not a clear distinction between men and women's clothing (however little there may be of it).
Application of the Scripture is not difficult. People may respond to Dt 22:5 differently, in different cultures. Responding to Dt 22:5 for the Believer today is not a matter of keeping the Mosaic Law, but a matter of responding to the revealed heart and will of God. Many Christians today rebel and choose to reject the heart of God rather than respond to it.
My wife and I choose to respond to the Scriptures by her not preaching and her wearing "women's attire," (which does not usually include pants). Nevertheless my wife has an effective and fruitful ministry in the church.
tyrone_howard — 2017-07-10T10:54:43-04:00 — #7
When you preach, are they your words or the Holy Ghost speaking through you?
tyrone_howard — 2017-07-10T10:56:42-04:00 — #8
Are you asking would, I or would I not wear wool and Linen woven together?
Four tassells on the Garment - served what purpose -?
I have not completed my study of holiness in deuteronomy yet so I'm not knowledgeable enough to answer these without some assistance on revelation of the scriptures from you If you have, if Not I'll take alook at them tonight and provide a more thorough answer tomorrow after some prayer.
Picking and chosing def isn't the way to go
dave_l — 2017-07-10T11:39:25-04:00 — #9
For starters I will say the New Covenant replaced the Old. So all of the Old Testament rules and regulations are not binding unless imported into the New Covenant by Jesus or the Apostles. And that under the New Covenant, love, not law, becomes the motive for all works considered good.
So Paul teaches women to be modest. Not to wield authority over men. Not to teach scripture. But to teach young women to be keepers at home (housewives). And to manage the home and kids. Among other things like sobriety etc...
tyrone_howard — 2017-07-10T14:43:19-04:00 — #10
Thanks for your opinion. We Wont agree and anyone who believes this will most like have your same viewpoints. I see the new testament as a perfection of the Old not a replacement but I completely understand how others feel different.
dave_l — 2017-07-10T14:55:32-04:00 — #11
““The day is coming,” says the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah. This covenant will not be like the one I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt. They broke that covenant, though I loved them as a husband loves his wife,” says the LORD. “But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel after those days,” says the LORD. “I will put my instructions deep within them, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.” Jeremiah 31:31–33 (NLT)
Repeated in Hebrews;
“If the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need for a second covenant to replace it. But when God found fault with the people, he said: “The day is coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah. This covenant will not be like the one I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand and led them out of the land of Egypt. They did not remain faithful to my covenant, so I turned my back on them, says the LORD. But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day, says the LORD: I will put my laws in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. And they will not need to teach their neighbors, nor will they need to teach their relatives, saying, ‘You should know the LORD.’ For everyone, from the least to the greatest, will know me already. And I will forgive their wickedness, and I will never again remember their sins.” When God speaks of a “new” covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear.” Hebrews 8:7–13 (NLT)
gao_lu — 2017-07-10T18:09:00-04:00 — #12
Interesting question. I would say that (with many failures) I speak as the Spirit gives me utterance. I struggle with the flesh sometimes.
tyrone_howard — 2017-07-10T20:09:45-04:00 — #13
@Gao_Lu We all hopefully continually learn to yield better. But yes you speak as spirit gives utterance. Likewise if we accept what Jesus said " if you've seen me you've seen the father, that the words I speak aren't my. own but the father and if we receive who was sent we didn't receive the sent but the sender"
If we accept that, then isnt it also true its Jesus through the Holy Ghost who preaches not wethe vessel right?
Although you hold a hose over a plant what waters the plant:the hose or the water from the faucet?
If you drink a bottle of water was it the bottle or the water which you drank for satisfaction?
tyrone_howard — 2017-07-10T20:22:54-04:00 — #14
So is it ok for you to wear a dress, makeup, panties bra and a blouse and say you serve The True and living God?
For me that is a law written in my heart before I was able to profess salvation?
I cannot disregard it and say well anything is acceptable into a Holy God.
Maybe you can.
For me I don't isolate Hebrews 8 from 9. 9 goes on to explain the new covenant incorporates into perfection the old, but now a new temple not made with hands where the holiess of holiess is accessible, laws now written on tablets of the heart instead of stone, & a perfect sacrificial lamb truly without spot or blemis so we can receive a greater understanding of promise from all previous covenants.
I've known as a child not to wear my mother's clothes? Why? Because his law was written in my heart. His law didn't change in that respect, just where it was written.
Thats only for me, I don't ask that for anyone else.
Furthermore, to soon disappear means it hasn't yet.(even though the wording of that rendition of scripture I don't lean towards) If upon the resurrection of Christ, it hadn't "disappeared" it hasn't magically today.
bill_coley — 2017-07-10T22:38:46-04:00 — #15
I'm asking whether the commands from Deut 22 I cited carry as much authority/control over your personal dress code as does the verse you previously cited, the one about men's and women's clothing. If they do, then do you conform to them in your daily apparel?
Aren't the only other options to deploy all of them or none of them in your life? It seems to me that picking and choosing is the practical middle ground in this matter, just as it is when it comes to our response to the Bible's take on the treatment/value of women and the morality of the practice of slavery. I can't in good faith accept either of those takes, and therefore choose to reject them.
Are there any attitudes/commandments/positions in the Bible that you reject, Tyrone, or is your practice to incorporate all biblical commands into your life, in rejection of a picking and choosing approach?
dave_l — 2017-07-11T06:59:35-04:00 — #16
Yes! If you are a woman. But what man motivated by love of God and love for others would involve himself in this or any other unnecessarily provocative activity?
But what if you were witnessing to transvestites? Paul said “To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.” 1 Corinthians 9:22 (KJV 1900)
tyrone_howard — 2017-07-11T11:56:12-04:00 — #17
Yeah I don't pick and choose. I struggle with some, Like sometimes I find myself listening to my wife and her sister's conversation and being a busy body in their affairs so I repent and try not to do it, but I don't reject anything scripture. I don't read any scripture and, think I to myself No, I don't believe that.
Yes. They do, I haven't read those yet myself but all scripture rightly dividing the word of truth of course has to be applied.
tyrone_howard — 2017-07-11T12:28:18-04:00 — #18
I laughed when you wrote it but incase anyone else reading it thought you were saying thats what we are supposed to do I'll clarify:
If witnessing to a Transvestite IT is NOT appropriate to wear its clothes to Win the Soul, the scriptures rightly divided would result in that act contradicting all other scriptures on the Matter. The Best course of action is becoming understanding and compassionate to their sin. Paul was speaking of cultures and nationalities and as much as we would like to make the LGBT community a sub culture, The Sexual Immorality is a Sin not a Subculture. I don't watch porn with someone bound by porn and say im trying to win them, or drink and smoke with drinkers and smokers to win them. Absurdity
dave_l — 2017-07-11T13:17:56-04:00 — #19
Is dressing like the opposite sex a sin in the New Covenant? Paul says effeminate men are sinning. But I know of some who are very feminine in their body english that dress like traditional males. And one woman who wears traditional female dress that is very masculine in her demeanor.
How does Old Covenant Law apply when the New Covenant replaced it? Old Covenant = Ten Commandments and sub laws.
tyrone_howard — 2017-07-11T13:41:10-04:00 — #20
I answered this before, actually. the 3 covenants Abrahamic, Mosaic, New covenant are 1 and the same. Each one perfecting the one before. i.e That which was told to Abraham was now written for Moses, which was then written on the Hearts of Men in the New covenant. Elohim dwelt no set place under the abrahamic covenant, Physical Temple made with hands - Mosaic - Our Body being the Temple - Under the New - Abrahamic promised a reward of Life and Land - Mosaic - Life and LAnd - New covenant Life and Land -
Elohim Never changed the laws just perfected WHAT it was written on
Elohim never changed worship/service just WHERE it occurred
Elohim Never changed the need for a sacrifice - just perfected the Who [Jesus Christ]
The Covenants aren't about replacing, they are about growing closer to him in an effort to return to where we were in the beginning.
Allowing Sin will never be on that path for, because of 1 sin ADAM was removed from the Garden, no record of him ever sinning again. Just 1 Sin is enough to keep you out of Heaven.
This explains Hebrews 8 that you previously used to justify your idea that it was replaced. http://christiandiscourse.com/t/why-is-it-more-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-wear-pants-then-to-preach/2681/14?u=tyrone_howard
next page →